Armies

[King of Rasslin]

Hoplite is 1/3 normally, but...

After 25% fortification bonus and behind 50% city walls bonus (or just size 7+ city), a hoplite becomes 1/5.25

It's a legion's 3 attack versus a hoplite's 5.25 defence. It usually amounts to a dead legion, or even an immortal. Factor in the hoplite's cheaper cost and you will see how powerful this unit is. On top of that, the hoplite doesn't need iron like the swordsman type units. A fortified hoplite in a 13+ city is as tougher than a rifleman in the open

If you are winning half the time against hoplites, you are lucky.

[Theseus]

King: Ahhh, but that "warmy&fuzzy&secure" feeling that MiloMilo refers to leads to chronic underbuilding of defensive forces. Yum yum yum, gonna eat me some Hoplites.

Back OT: I continue to be impressed by Armies... including, btw, the elegance of the design. Over the last couple days I've been playing a Bab game (bizarro world response to the whole Industrious discussion); created a 1-Bowman Army waaay early, nailed a 1-hp Spearman for the HE, and saved the Army for later. It's currently 14-hp, Bowman - Swordsman - Longbowman... and the powerhouse in the game. I call it "General Maximus." I will later add an Infantry, and call it "Audie Murphy." Think of that augmented Army as uber-Infantry... remember the mechanism: each attack or defense event starts with the strongest unit.

I dream about my Armies.

[Giovanni Wine]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
Hoplite is 1/3 normally, but...

After 25% fortification bonus and behind 50% city walls bonus (or just size 7+ city), a hoplite becomes 1/5.25

It's a legion's 3 attack versus a hoplite's 5.25 defence. It usually amounts to a dead legion, or even an immortal. Factor in the hoplite's cheaper cost and you will see how powerful this unit is. On top of that, the hoplite doesn't need iron like the swordsman type units. A fortified hoplite in a 13+ city is as tougher than a rifleman in the open

If you are winning half the time against hoplites, you are lucky.

you must also take into account that!
1)You will probably use Veteran Legions, Greece will use regulars

2)They usually don't build city wall early, and don't have many 7+ cities, since they probably have just finished the "land grab" phase

Anyway my usual tactic is:
1)attack with a horseman (75% he retreat before dyeing)
2)attack with another horseman
3)finish the wounde hoplite with a legion
4)finish the second wounded hoplite with a legion
5)kill the archer or the warrior with a third legion or horseman
6)move to next city

I almost always do like that Greece is so predictable, that's why is, afterall, not that hard to crush

Saluti

[King of Rasslin]

Well, beating on the AI isn't very outstanding. A human player really could use hoplites very well. It takes a while for a barracks to finish for non militaristic civs, and you can bet that some hoplites will be promoted from killing barbarians. The whole concept of armies just doesn't work. Why would you make an army of 2 longbowmen and 1 musketman if you could send them as individual units? Really, the sharing hps doesn't matter since longbowmen are so weak defensively anyway.

If anything, I would send an army only to focus an attack on a single unit, but would have separate defensive units to defend the army. I never liked the idea of mixed armies. After defeating the musketman defender, the 2 longbowmen will die. If the units are separate, then the AI needs 3 attacks to kill them all, not 1. In some cases, an army is just a bunched up group of units easier for the AI to kill. If armies are going to be used, they should be totally offensive or totally defensive.

[Theseus]

King, you are missing the most meaningful aspect of Armies.

In each individual encounter, the strongest unit, whether on offense or defense, starts. Repeatedly.

So let's say you have an all-vet 2X Longbow and 1X Musket Army:

On attack, it's functionally a 4 attack strength unit with 8 usable hps... fairly formidable, I'd say.

On defense, it's a 4 defense unit... again and again, for potentially 11 hps. Each time it's attacked, the Musketman comes to the fore.

In my recent Egyptian epic, I had two Armies of Infantry, Musket, Longbow and Sword... invaluable defenders.

[King of Rasslin]

Um... Not in my experiences. An army of 1 mech infantry and 2 warriors isn't as good as an army of 3 mech infantry, ok? The defending unit doesn't just "absorb" the hps of the other units. After being reduced to 1 hp, the musketman retreats and the longbowmen jump in. The defence of the army is reduced to 1 because the musketman can no longer fight.

However, an army of 3 mech infantry can take 11 damage before being destroyed. Thats +2 hps, basically. Not worth it, in my opinion...

[Theseus]

Sorry, not explaining well.

Yes, of course, 3 strong individual defenders beat 1 in an Army backed up by 2 weak defense offenders.

Not the point... I'm saying that on succesive battles, the strong defender is repeatedly the first to fight. This is true even if in, say, the first battle, the strong defender uses all its hps, and the remaining units have enough hps, even if weak, to survive. In the next battle, the strong defender starts again, using whatever total hps are left.

The same is true on offense... add a Tank to a Cav Army, and, when blitzing, the Tank always strikes the first blow.

BTW, using your example, 3 vet MIs can take 11 hps damage, and 1 will survive with 1 hp. That sort of sucks. A 3 vet MI Army can take the same punishment, and survive in entirety, heal at a faster rate than the 1, and over time the units will almost certainly be promoted to elite.

Try it Mikey, you'll like it.

[King of Rasslin]

Wrong again. 3 veteran mech infantry have a total of 12 hps. After 11 damage is distributed to them, 2 die and 1 has a single hp.

If an army of 3 mech infantry takes 11 damage, there is only 1 hp left but all 3 are alive. See what I'm saying? Overall, it's a +2 hp benefit. Still not enough to justify the use of armies.

Yes, your example shows that, if the longbowmen win, the musketman will be fresh in the next fight. However, odds are those longbowmen are dead the minute that musketman falls. A lot of it depends on your luck. And if you are lucky enough to get an army, I guess you are ok. I still find a wonder to be better, though. Boring, true, but better.

[Theseus]

But those +2hp are the difference between being dead or alive!!

I get enough GLs that there isn't always a GW or SW to build, so I build Armies. I even stockpile them.

To each his own.

[MiloMilo]

Update Arrian: I got a leader! Yay! Finally my Greek armies will swarm over the vile Aztecs in their dirty jungles and take their pretty rubber, useful for so many things (units, I mean)!

Theseus, For the longest time I shared Rasslin's doubt as to the effectiveness of your mixed-use armies. Now I understand however. I'll have to try that.

[Willem]

Another approach would be to bring in lots of Catapults and bombard the crap out them, before you attack with your regular troops. It's a bit tedious, since Catapults are hopelessly inaccurate, but eventually you'll whittle them down.

I sure hope we get the auto-bombard in the next patch! Between group move and auto-bombard, Catapults/Cannon will become very valuable units.

PS Provided of course auto-bombard actually means what I think it does.

[Coracle]

If you thinbk the game is tedious with CATAPULTS bombarding wait till you get to artillery!!

The lack of auto-bombard (all artillery in a tile hitting the same target) is very needed, and the same goes for auto-bombard for naval units.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Firaxis to change this.