Armies

[King of Rasslin]

I attacked the hoplite with my immortal. The battle should have gone on perfectly. I knocked off one hp with no problem. Then another. Then I got hit. Then I hit him again. He hits me three times in a row (!) and then I had a dead immortal. No problem, I can finish off that almost dead hoplite with my other immortals. Um, right after I finish off the 4 healthy ones ready to guard the injured one! And on the next turn, the injured hoplite was at 100% again. I learned 2 good lessons from that experience.

#1- Don't mess with Greece
#2- If I used an army, I could have killed that hoplite without having to go through the others protecting it. This is 1 of the 2 uses I have seen for armies. In reverse, an army defending isn't dead until it is totally destroyed. Where you would normally lose a musketman or two, an army can cut your losses because of the extra hps.

Producing an army can be a shield place holder when you plan to immediately get that wonder when it's first available. The high cost of armies has helped me many times this way!

And... Thats it. I can't find any other uses for armies besides this. Oh well, I wish they could be more useful...

[Harovan]

You can mess with Greece in the ancient age, if you are Persia or the Iroquois. Other civs should wait for knights. Make sure that you attack only with completely healthy and veteran units. Bring enough of them, and Alex is toast.

On the use of armies, I recommend you the lecture of this thread;

[V.O.C.'02]

Picked an early fight with the greeks the other day. My roman legionaires did not have any trouble at all killing of those Hoplites.

It's all between the ears, any civ who sees my centurions coming their way, gets fortfied of fear!

(Or maybe it's just my luck)

[Skanky Burns]

I attacked a hoplite with an army of legionaires.
Hoplites - 1
Army - 0

It wasn't even a large city (was below size 6) and didn't have city walls. Although I'm sure it was the "one in a thousand" chance that it died, I haven't used an army since.

[Harovan]

Well, I rushed Greek cities with War Chariots. It worked, but I was aware, that my losses would be significant.

The key is, attack with 100% healthy veterans. The Greeks aren't militaristic and usually don't build early barracks, so you face regulars. Be aware, you need an average of about 3 WC's/Horsemen for each Hoplite. Since the AI has mostly 2 defenders (except very early) and will poprush a third if in trouble, and there's often also an archer or warrior in the city, anything below 10 units would be too risky. Take in account, that you always face only the strongest unit. So it could happen, that you injure all 3 hoplites and the archer to 1hp, and since they are regulars, they are at 3hp's again the next turns, since cities without barracks heal 2hp's per turn. Even worse: The archer surely counterattacks, and will certainly take out one of your remaining healthy WC's (since the healthy ones go for defense).

[Solver]

Yah? I once had a game with the Aztecs, where due to geography, I absolutely had to kill Greece in the Ancient Age if I wanted to have any chance of survival later on. Obviously, only my Veteran Swordsmen did anything good, Archers were only for picking up Warrios in the field .

[zulu9812]

Re: Armies

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
I attacked the hoplite with my immortal.

lol- dude, don't mess with hoplites

[Ninot]

In my Roman games, I routinely pick on the greeks with my legions.

The key seems to be persistance. After all... Hoplites can only be promoted to Elite once .

I find it both effective to keep a constant attack... and no matter the cost, it is important to keep a foothold in Greek territory. They seem to just collapse defensively if you can keep troups constantly at their gates... and if you can resist their first and second counter attacks. Seem to run out of resources, and can't rebuild the hoplites too well.

[King of Rasslin]

A border city will have 2 or 3 hoplites. The capitol can have 5+ in some games. A hoplite costs less than a legion or swordsman, but can (usually) kill 2 before it dies. Cities above size 6 give 50% defence, I think. Of course, smaller cities can have walls. Combined with fortification, they are just too hard to kill. It's easy to outnumber them when you are twice their size. But you will usually lose to the Greeks if they are equal to you in power. I wouldn't bother wasting resources on an army here, a military alliance is what you need.

Armies can concentrate on 1 unit, and have a hp bonus. Thats good. But it isn't worth spending the production of a small wonder to get them!

[Txurce]

An army will probably take a hoplite, but an army could also die against a hoplite. I don't think it's worth the risk.

I agree with Sir Ralph that enough WCs can overwhelm a Greek city... but you'll need a lot of WCs to take more than a couple of cities. It's not worth the effort. If at all possible, let them go until chivalry or even cavalry.

[notyoueither]

Yes VOC and Ninot, you have found the glory of Mars.

The game I kept track of, each Greek city went like this:
Elite Legion attacks regular Hoplite, Legion dies. Elite Legion attacks regular Hoplite, Hoplite dies. Veteran Legion attacks wounded Hoplite, Hoplite dies. Most of the time there was an Archer as the third unit, or none at all and the city was added to the glory of Rome. 9 of 10 cities went that way. All the same. First elite Legion died. All the rest won.

Hoplites? Wait for Knights? Have Legions, will travel.

[V.O.C.'02]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Yes VOC and Ninot, you have found the glory of Mars.

All the same. First elite Legion died. All the rest won.

Hoplites? Wait for Knights? Have Legions, will travel.

Yes, this sounds kinda familiar to me. When you're gonna take it up against those hoplites you know what you gonna get.

The unit I absolutely detest are the spearman, somehow, someway, they just scare me with their demonic 1/2/1 from hell. I never know what I'm up for with those little rascals.

I Personaly feel like a big bad mofo when I have a couple of spearman guarding my floorishing empire. Bring it on you evil evil barabarian uprisings1

[Arrian]

Armies can be useful, but I lost a fully rested 3-Rider army to a wounded (2hp) pikeman last night. Yeah, the pike was in a size 9 city.

I prefer the flexibility of using multiple units. In the case of hoplites... well, waiting for knights is the smart play most of the time, but if you really need to take them out early, then bring horsemen. Soften the hoplites with the horsies, finish with your immortals.

-Arrian

[MiloMilo]

Question/update: 2 games into 1.21f now, and still no great leaders. Now, I never play militaristic civs, and usually I'm a builder, but I'm usually at war with someone, somewhere, expanding my borders bit by bit. Have they reduced the chance for leaders in 1.21f or have I just had really bad luck?

[I heard that if you use the random seed option, you get maps without luxuries... have I done something that has resulted in no leaders? All I've edited are a few units' ADM values, and double hit points across the board... ]

Incidentally, using the Greeks for the second game, and hoplites definitely rock. They just make me feel so warm & fuzzy & secure... though, I must say that I avoided actually USING the hoplites until the middle ages. Stupid? No, it gave me my golden age at exactly the right time, just when I was ready to shoot ahead to #1... I like this game

[Arrian]

Milo,

I just finished a 121 game in which I got 7 leaders. Of course, I was playing a militaristic civ, and I did a lot of fighting.

-Arrian