Getting the most out of your Elites

[Capt Dizle]

Am I hearing about different play styles? I thought we had concluded that there was only one way to play the game and every game is the same?

We must test immediately. I propose twin succession games with predefined styles from one save file and regular comparisons.

Wait, ugh, that would require actually playing the game.

Forget it.

[Velociryx]

You got me there....perhaps I should say...shades of grey....

-=Vel=-

[rpodos]

OK, I started a game tonight with the express purpose of playing "builder."

I played Indian, since they and Babs seem "naturally" best with that approach (at least the AI acts so). Large world, restless barbs, 3rd continents (most land), normal climate, temp, and age. Emperor, and 9 random civs.

I ended up in the middle of an almost Pangaea, fairly isolated, which supported the builder strategy.

YUUUUCCCKKK!!!

I've been totally outpaced in everything... number of cities (obviously), and thus tech, military units, GWs, you name it.

I'm still isolated, and can build out the geography I want, with decent resouces / luxuries.

BUT:

1. I feel emotionally drained. I don't like being the loser; even if I know I'll catch up due to my superior AI (years of programming went into it, and my dad's name is not Soren), it's not fun to just play catch up, as Vel and others have pointed out.

2. I'm missing out on all of the early GWs, which p*sses me off to no end.

3. I very much LIKE combat. Even though I'm just getting to my UU, I missed seeing my warriors get big, my archers more accurate, my horsies get strong.

AND, having missed out on my favs (Colossus, Pyramids, Great Library, and Sun Tzu), my general civ is suffering... poor, starving, stupid, and untrained.

So, jt, if you are asking if I have my own strat, the answer is a resounding yes. Somebody else already said it (reference to Shogun: Total War), but I have come to realize that Civ3 as it is is a wargame as much as anything. Kill'em all, and I'll sort out my GLs along the way.

R

ps: Commercial is useless.

[rpodos]

OK, that sucked.

I'm starting a new game, and I'm going to war with the first civ I see.

Elite, here I come.

R

[Barchan]

Originally posted by rpodos

I'm starting a new game, and I'm going to war with the first civ I see.

R

Shoot first, talk afterwards

[philler]

Vel, you seem to imply that formerly elite troops which have been upgraded (and thus are back to veteran status) have a better chance of becoming elite again than newly built veteran troops...

is that just an assumption? (or have I simply misunderstood something?)

[Arrian]

rpodos,



The way you describe your civ (poor, starving, stupid), is how I have felt in the past when I've occasionally tried warmongering early on. What level were you trying "builder" on, btw? I assure you it can do much better on Monarch, but if you were in Emperor or Diety, I cannot advise. I will say this, though, commercial does suck - use the Babs or Egyptians if you try again.

I, for the heck of it, decided to finally take another stab at early warmongering. I picked the Japanese. I love mounted troops, and I'm always raving about them, so I figured a civ that can see horses from turn 1 is the way to go for me.

I built 4-5 cities and starting pumping out horsemen (vets, of course). Then I attacked and utterly crushed my neighbor, the Indians. I beat them so soundly that I only got two horsies to elite, and no leaders. Room to grow, of course, but not exactly the payoff I was looking for. So, I wheeled south, after building up my army a bit more, and took on China. 3 great leaders later, I allowed them to keep their 2 pitiful remaining cities (I wiped them out later). At this point, I owned my own continent, 3 luxury monopolies, the Great Library (built myself), the Colossus (built), the Great Lighthouse (rushed w/leader), the Pyramids (captured) and a nicely placed Forbidden Palace. Since then the ONLY wonder I didn't get was Leo's.

So, ok, I admit, well-executed warmongering can be... pretty darn effective. Since then, I (with some help from my... friend Bismarck) have wiped out France, gaining two more luxuries. I haven't had this big of a tech lead since 1.16 (the AI hit the Industrial Age when I was just about done with Hoover). I will have Tanks before they have infantry. It's... awesome. I'm a baaaaaaad man.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

A few more thoughts about whether or not to upgrade elite units:

The larger the map, the more units you have, and the more battles you fight. Better chances for leaders, no? Also, if you upgrade your elite units, and are fighting, they will get back to elite pretty quick (or die).

On small and tiny maps, I would think it may be a better idea to hang on to elites instead of upgrading them. Especially if you aren't a raging warmonger.

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Agreed, Arrian....smaller maps = more incentive to hang on to those existing elites! Outstanding observation!

And, to the question about whether elites upgraded in weapons (downgraded to veteran status) tend to bounce back to Elites faster....they *seem* to in my games, tho I couldn't swear to it...but yeah...they sure seem to!

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

Vel,

I doubt that's anything other than circumstance. I don't know for sure, obviously, but it doesn't make sense that Firaxis would have taken the time to code in a + to the chances of promotion for units that were upgraded from elites. That strikes me as a lot of work for a fairly small feature.

-Arrian

[Unregistered]

Well, I'd have to agree w/ Vel. Upgraded elites seem to get back to elite status more quickly than a newly minted vetern does. That's my observation anyway.

Cheers,

[Arrian]

Hmm... well, maybe you guys are right. Soren? Dan? Anybody, care to comment?

-Arrian

[Barchan]

This may be one of those selective "I only remember the bad things" observations, but it seems as though the AI assigns a priority to taking out Elite offensive units. I've seen the AI target my full-strength Elite tanks while leaving nearby damaged Veteran tanks alone. Anyone else seen any evidence of the AI assigning a higher target value to Elite units?

[Arrian]

Well... not really, but if it does, it's smart.

Here's a good example of only remembering the bad stuff:

I could SWEAR that those "bad" random numbers show up most often for my elites. It's like they're complacent. Struttin' around, callin' themselves "elite" and promptly getting their asses kicked when I tell them to actually fight. I know, I know, it's perception, not fact, but the ubiquitous AI "uber spearman" seems to pop up whenever I use an elite horsie. Elite Samurai finally downing regular spearmen with 1hp remaining. Stuff like that.

Then again, a crucial battle in my present game was resolved by me (crossing my fingers and saying "f-it") attacking the last defending spearman in a very important town with a musketman... and actually winning, 1hp left. I have also had regular swordsmen of mine take out conscript riflemen.

-Arrian

[Tingkai]

Vel: your strategy made some sense before 1.17, but not now.

1.17 included a change where "Mobile units now have to make a die roll to determine if they withdraw. Success is also modified by their experience level."

So by attacking with regulars you have less chance of winning and you run the risk of creating elite AIs. So it is better to attack with veterans where you gain an advantage from their experience level.

Using regulars to attack AI units in territory that does not have a significant defence bonus could work, or at least the chance or losing is obviously reduced.