crazy deity

[tommyd]

Aeson: Thanks for all the info. You helped fill a lot of small gaps in my knowledge...

Solo: Here are the stats for my game:

I've got 19 cities, China has 17, and everyone is lower than that...

China and zulu are on their own continents, and both have average armies compared to me.
England and France are on the same continent, and I have a strong army compared to them.

Russia, Iroquis(me), and Persia are all on the same continent (Aztecs have been destroyed). Russia has about 10 cities, and Persia has about 9 as well (but they are squeezed into mountainous terrain, and can't get their pop up too much)

I used 5 cities as temp cities to pop rush my units.
I have about 57 mounted horesmen and 10 cavalry
Knights have shown up, but I've had to skip past them.

TECH:
Tech wise, I am two techs behind: artistry, and nationalism.
Industrialization is about to be discovered by Persia first (go figure).
I have about 1000 gold, with +135 a turn because of all my luxurious to other civs.
Zulu and Rusia are way behind everyone in tech...

MAP:
(going from left to right) My capitol is a bit isolated because of mountains and desert, followed with my 5 temp cities all lined up in a row, followed by the city with the forbidden palace, and Newton's University, and 2 good cities near it.

(quick map)

t
t g
c t f
t g
t

c = capital t = temp city f=forbidden palace & newt's univ city
g = good cities

I want to disband 4 of the 5 temp cities (one has a harbor), use the settlers to make them good cities, and switch to democracy
I also have my f city building a palace, waiting for TOE to come along.

Was that enough info?

About the pop rush thing: I heard it wasn't taken out, they just fixed it so when you pop rush it gets rid of the happy citizen instead of the unhappy one. (if this were true, I guess it would mean that more temples and cathedrals would have to be built before the city could be pop rushed?)

Have you found an alternative (besides pop rushing) that works to keep the player in line with the computer on Deity?

Tommy

[tommyd]

solo: my little map was butchered...oh well...

Tommy

[Aeson]

The easiest way to stay on par with the AI tech wise will be to play on a huge map with lots of land as an Expansionist civ (lots of techs from huts). Not everyone is going to want to play those settings though, the games get pretty tedious eventually. Building your core cities up to size 5 or 6 allows for near pop-rushing efficiency in producing military, but take longer to set up. The problem is that corruption keeps most of your cities from producing anything near that rate, those cities aren't going to be nearly as useful anymore. Using a Civ with a later UU will be more viable now, as they can be upgraded to when the slow military buildup phase is complete.

[solo]

tommyd,

Okay, I get the picture. Most of my experience is limited to games where the AI had many more cities than myself, so it is difficult to estimate how quickly they are researching in comparison to you, but my guess is that they are learning a little faster than you are at this point in the game, since they have a slight lead now. To answer your questions:

1) The best way to slow them down is by being the first one to as many techs as possible. Luxury sales help, but the newest techs are where the real action is. It’s called tech whoring at lower levels, but in deity it is a vital ingredient to success. Fresh techs, which can be sold to the AI for large amounts of gold/turn, force them to lower their rate of research, making it easier for you to get additional techs first. Tricks to being first? Not many.

a) As suggested by Aeson, go straight for Theory of Evolution, which is best approached through Electricity. If you learn this first, AI’s will probably have learned Medicine and Industrialization( which they are more likely to go for before Electricity) in the meantime, which you can acquire by trading Electricity. If you pre-build early enough and precede the pre-build with a rushed factory (and maybe a coal plant, too), ToE should be yours by the time you learn Scientific Method. The turn before building ToE, check all the AI, and acquire all techs you don’t already have. Suppose you can not afford this, which is likely. Consider stealing the most advanced tech you don’t have and using this to trade for others you still lack. For me, a “safe” steal has always worked, although it costs an average of 3000 gold, so save up. If you are behind in tech at this point in the game, and lack enough for a “safe” steal, you may have to bet the outcome of the game on a riskier theft to have any chance to win. If worked right, ToE will give you a temporary 2 tech lead. Sell immediately, first to the fastest AI learners for as much gold/turn as you can get to slow down their science.

b) Always go as deeply into the tech tree as possible with each new research choice. So after Scientific Method, a good plan is to proceed straight across towards Radio, another reason being that the AI prefer the techs above this line through the tree, too. This will give you better chances for learning a tech first, giving you leverage to acquire other techs and to command large gold/turn payments.

c) In the Modern Age, I go for Computers first for the same reasons as in b), above. You will need SETI and especially research labs ASAP. I would save cash for a theft of Space Flight and leave it up to one of the AI to discover it first, while taking the Ecology - Synthetic Fibers route after Computers. Both command excellent gold payments from the AI, yet the AI are more likely to go after other techs first. Go figure why. Important to consider, is that Synthetic Fibers permits you to build the biggie, SS Exterior Casing plus 2 other SS parts, so you’ll want to have enough time to do this. IMO, arriving here last would be a big mistake, with too much left to do. I usually plan to learn Laser last, and have SS Planetary Party Lounge ready to go the turn of discovery. The AI may seem a bit lackadaisical about SS part acquisitions, but will still beat you most of the time to the last part if you let them. Only one of my wins so far has been by more than 1 SS part, or by a margin of 2 turns or less.

d) You are almost sure to lose if you hold back on selling new techs you acquire. You better have a game-winning reason not to sell them for as much as possible right away.

2) Rather than beaker counts, consider how many turns its taking for you to learn a new tech. Over 20, and you will fall behind well behind, I bet, and lose. If you are managing 15 or better, chances are even. It goes without saying that you should concentrate science improvements in the cities having the most commerce. Try to get all your science wonders in the same city, to magnify its beaker production. Remember that the AI research rate is basically double what yours is, and consider that they will build science everywhere eventually and get faster at learning just when the cost of techs jumps up in the Modern Age. You better get there first, or at least at the same time, to have a reasonable chance, because there aren’t any off-path techs to distract them there, except maybe Genetics which they may take a detour to for its wonders.

3) Republic or Democracy are needed for research. Switch as soon as all wars are concluded. With double-speed workers, Democracy is probably best.

4) 100 gold/turn is not that bad. You can do okay at that level, as long as you can bump this up temporarily when getting a tech first and selling it.

Finally, when I started learning OCC in CivII, I found the game logs of the best players to be invaluable. They provided insights into successful strategies and most important, the details about how to pay the game that way. With specific builds and timelines, and identical starts to play practice games with, the logs were very useful to me for comparing my progress to that of the master OCC players. Logs of successful games will contain the details that you have been asking for in this thread. Though OCC is much harder on deity in CivIII, a lot can be gleaned from the posted and attached logs in my “Quest for an OCC launch” thread. The starts are attached to that thread, too. Another thread containing logs by myself and Toe Truck are in the thread that introduced the Five City Challenge: here is the link

tommyd,

A few other points:

1) You can check the science rate of an AI by investigating any city. Pick the cheapest, of course, since all city displays show this. If their science is set at about 30%, this is good and where you want it to be. If it is over 50%, this AI will keep beating you to techs unless you are able to arrange more trades to be getting more gold/turn.

2) If an AI can not pay you much for a tech you are trying to sell, sometimes waiting just a few turns will make a big difference. So while you should sell techs as soon as you get them, you shouldn’t sell them if the AI will not pay well. Along this line, it may also be a mistake to sell a tech to an AI if it permits construction of a vital wonder you are working on that is less than half complete. Also beware that although AI’s do not pre-build purposely, they can do this inadvertently, if a wonder they are working on is completed by someone else. They might shift accumulated shields to the one you want if they have the tech in time.

3) Wait as long as possible to acquire non-vital techs from the AI. Their cost will go down substantially if you wait long enough. For example, why pay 1000 gold now for Communism, which you will never make any use out of, when you can get it later on for only 200? The only reason to acquire it, is to keep the ToE from presenting it to you, so be patient and conserve some gold.

4) Science improvements should all be rushed and given priority. Then if you build all happiness improvements, build marketplaces and import all the luxuries you can, you should be able to set science at 90 or 100%, something you should aim for. When science is maxed out, it makes no sense to build banks.

5) An alternative strategy for a good sized civ like yourself might be to generate as much income as possible and try to finance your way to tech parity by just buying and reselling the newest techs. However, you will always be no better than second to a new tech, and sometimes the AI just won’t sell. At deity level, their rate of research may outstrip your ability to make enough to afford new techs. As far as I know, no one has made a successful try at playing it this way in deity, although the strategy has worked well at lower levels.

6) Keep in mind that any AI with 5 or more cities in deity will be a challenge to you. Consider that that is all they need to beat the production and science rate of the useful cities you have yourself, which you say is only a handful.

7) That free tech at the start of each new age is BIG if you are a scientific civ. That first new age tech commands oodles of gold/turn from the AI who were left behind.


A final comment is that peaceful games are probably the hardest to win, especially by a launch in OCC. By allowing uncontested AI growth and expansion, you become a David among Goliaths. Playing this way is reminiscent of the feel of the “super deity” games we were trying for awhile in CivII. It’s also a lot of fun to win by wits rather than by brawn. For myself, conquest games become tedious the moment the advantage has been achieved.

[solo]

tommyd,

I read at Civfanatics that despot pop-rushing was eliminated. It may still be in use with Communism, though. Also note some edited additions to the post above. Also, NO DISRESPECT at all intended for those who prefer and enjoy military rush strategies. Wits are needed to be successful in that kind of game at deity, too, and just as much work, if not more, goes into developing those kinds of strategies. It's also fun to kick a little ### once in awhile, too!

solo

I guess I should visit the General forum more often. Pop-rushing was modified.

[tommyd]

Solo:

We'll have to wait a bit longer for the status on pop-rushing.

In the readme is says: Despotism-poprushing eliminated.
But another message (somewhere now lost) stated that someone
from firaxis mentioned that pop-rushing was changed: pre 2nd patch every time you pop-rushed the unhappy citizen was killed off, post 2nd patch they kill off the happy citizens first, leaving you with the unhappy ones...

Not sure which is true...

I think you've given me enough info to make a go of it now. Of course, if pop-rushing was eliminated in the patch, I may just feel like starting over...

What's the best thread to look at for info on an early game strategy that lets you somewhat compete with the AI without pop rushing?

Super Deity? Was that a higher Civ2 level? Or a way people played Civ2 differently?

Thanks for all your help!

Tommy

[solo]

Tommy,

I think I remember Soren responding to one the threads in the General Forum that pop-rushing would get rid of a happy guy in town and that repeated pop-rushing would lead to extra unhappiness that had to be dealt with, no matter how many citizens there were left after the pop.

Not much that I've seen about competing on deity without pop-rushing. I know that I do not do it in my games, but can't point you to others or their threads claiming success on that level without it. This attests to just how useful the strategy was. There is a good "builder" strategy thread on this forum that I looked at recently that may help you out.

In CivII, we discovered that we could edit one of the text files (I believe it was rules.txt), and just add Super Deity (or whatever you wanted to call it) below the Deity line where all the choices for difficulty are listed. The game creates a new, higher level. I think for our "super" games we went up even one more level by adding another. We also added a barbarian level, too. This made for some wild and wooly games!

[La Fayette]

solo
I changed my mind and played a lot of civ2 ( especially since Xin Yu was busy exploding all my previous records in CiC scenarios and that made me feel like having one more try) + civ3 tournament games, so I haven't tried civ3 deity level yet.
I find it very interesting reading you though, ... and it seems that I am going to need it badly, since people say that the new patch is going to kill my 'size6' strategy.


(La Fayette, dreaming of 'size 7' or something like that)

[solo]

La Fayette,

I was following the action in your CivII thread on the strategy forum. Xin Yu always manages to find a better way, doesn't he?

I'm playing out tournament #5 now, making the most out of "size 6" before loading the new patch. Looks like it has many improvements. Time will tell.

Would have replied earlier, but I think the forum here was down.

Tommy - Try the making the Great LIbrary after installing the new patch. The hardest part of catching up in deity is staying even with techs, which GL lets you do. Have fun with the rest of you current game.

solo