No announcement yet.

Nation balance

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Nation balance

    Just a thought that occured to me while reading, but mabye the nations as they are have some weak UU's on PURPOSE. For example: the French. The french have one of the lousiest UU's in the game, but they also have both Commercial AND Industrial, 2 of the GREATEST especially in combination. Contrast this with the Iroquois or the Aztecs, sure the abilities of Expansionist, Religious, and Militaristic are all decent abilities, but each is of only limited use, and does not provide far-reaching widespread civ advantages. Commercial and industrial can, in there own ways, provide all of these advantages, if slightly less efficient.

    Another example is England, which has expansionist and commercial, and which uses the UU of Man-of-War (IMO another very bad unit). Now taken together, expansionist and commercial might not seem so great, but if you consider the advantages of each, it makes sense. Expansionist is one of the best early game advantages, whilst commercial's true power kicks in during the late game. This makes this Civ one of the most balanced in the game, allowing for equal strength during both early game and late game (ignoring effectiveness of UUs).

    I think that it's possible that these more well-balanced Civs were winning far too much during early game testing, and so they were given a significant disadvantage in the UU department. It is my personal belief that they may have created a greater disparity between these Civs and those with exceptional UUs than might have been otherwise without such a change.

    Just a thought, probably wrong, but it's good sometimes to stir the thought processes

    Questions? Comments? Inane posts? I'm all ears.

  • #2
    Good thoughts, but it seems a little too convenient that Firaxis found some cosmic balance between civ traits and unique units, judging from how arbitrary some of the other features in the game seem. If they playtested to the extent that you speculate, I cannot imagine that UU's would be the first thing they'd change.

    But if nothing else, it sure is nice to have the variety, even if I'm never ever building Musketteer.
    " is possible, however unlikely, that they might find a weakness and exploit it." Commander Togge, SW:ANH


    • #3
      Firaxis Playtesting

      If I recall correctly, in some thread or chat Firaxis admitted not playtesting in the modern era, and only playtesting a little in the industrial era. That explains how some stuff came out the way it did, but I believe they did make an attempt to balance out the civilizations. Even rudimentary playtesting would reveal the power of the French attributes, for example, as players figured that out quickly. It is also worth noting that good cases are made by players on these boards for every civilization offered with two notable exceptions, the expansionist civilizations that lack the industrious and religious Traits and don't have good UU's, namely Russia and England. ( Though my wife hates with a passion dealing with the English. She goes out of her way to exterminate all of Elizabeth's little cronies at every opportunity. )

      I have also noticed that my top AI competitors are usually either the French, the Germans, or the Russians. That might have something to do with the fact that I usually play Asian or African civilizations and eliminate all my neighbors.


      • #4

        England sucks on this game
        Up The Millers


        • #5
          Well, there are many different opinions about the relative strength of the civ attributes. For instance, you say Religious is of limited use. I deem it to be the best trait in the game. Then you have to consider your world settings. The English are indeed garbage on the normal, small and tiny maps, but I would be willing to bet they're pretty solid on large and huge worlds.

          As for deliberately weak UU's, I think it's possible... but unlikely to have been finely balanced and tested to death (that would be kinda out of character, wouldn't it?).

          The Babylonian bowman, for instance, is a pretty weak unit, and it isn't useful for very long. Upgrade path isn't very good, either (longbowmen). I consider the Babs to be a very stong civ (though I think that is partially due to the fact that I play on Normal maps... they would probably be weaker on large or huge). So that jives with your theory - strong civ, weak UU.

          But then there is the case of the Persians. This is a moderately strong civ (my opinion, clealry), with an excellent UU.

          The Iroquois are a decent civ with a fantastic UU.


          grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

          The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.


          • #6
            English do well on large maps, but get scattered a bit by jumping good sites discinnected from their main empire. The Babs build a solid but smallish civ. Their generally early Golden Age is a disadvantage. The Persians tend to play out, falling behind by Industrial Age despite a usually good start. The Aztecs either thrive (requiring a coalition of all the other civs to keep them from depopulating whole continents) or suck (stuck in a perpetual round robin of warfare with the Zulus, Irriquois, and or Americans until they are ground away.
            No matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
            "I played it [Civilization] for three months and then realised I hadn't done any work. In the end, I had to delete all the saved files and smash the CD." Iain Banks, author


            • #7
              I think most of the Civs are pretty well balanced. Each has its area of expertise. The Americans and English kind of get shafted though, as their UU's are almost worthless. Most other UU's can be used effectively, though ones that block the horse upgrade path can be annoying. On the other hand, the Iroquois and Persians do well with almost any playstyle because of decent traits, and great UU's. The other Civs all seem to have their niche, and do quite well at it.


              • #8
                I play the English by default, On Every Game I play, Becuase, erm... I come from England , But I am completely unhappy with the way we are on the game.

                Lets have a Look -

                Expansionist , Well, We started out on a Tiny Ireland So I can see why we possess this Quality. I Hate it, Yes, I love the Early Tech, and I do play on Largish (not huge mind) Maps, but come on, what use is Early Tech realisically?? For the first 40 turns you dont NEED City Improvements, and you get Masonry (Pyramids) by Trading with Industrius civ. IMO the advantage of Early Tech cannot Justify a FULL civ advantage.

                Commercial - Everyone hates Corruption, Me Included, but anyone who really wants to Enjoy a game, will hack this with the Editor. I Increase the Optimal number of cites (by about 70%, not to 512!) and make Temples&Barracks reduce corruption , So my advantage is diminished further!!

                and The UU , OMG! , This has to be the most useless Unit in Existance!!

                This is what we should have been given :-

                Expansionist - BUT, this quality should also make Setters slightly cheaper to build, becuase at current it's not good enough!!!

                Industrious - Why? Becuase Who Started the Industrial f****** Revolution?? Yes! It was the Glorious English.

                Now, as for UU, Since The English just about Invented everything in History after 1000ad , it woudnt have been hard to find us a decent UU . I can see why we got a naval unit, but come on, what about our ships around the WW2 Era, Our Naval Power was COMPLELY UnMatched!!, Oh, and Not to Forget Spitfires. Mind, the Problem with them is that the Unit's come too late, So, If someone had thought back to the Times of Gunpowder, how about giving us out version of Riflemen, Since We Invented That too!!!!!!

                This Game was designed by a GERMAN!
                Up The Millers


                • #9
                  Here you are Firaxis

                  The English Spitfire!

                  Attack Strenth 6
                  Defense Strenth 2
                  Operational Range 4
                  Bombard Strength 2
                  Bombard Range 0
                  Rate of Fire 1

                  This would make a Decent But not Overpowered UU (Rememeber Defensive Air Units can play Little, If any part in a game so)


                  English Musketmen, This type of unit was used a lot in the times when our GLORIOUS Empire came to Control a Quarter of the World (Yes FIRAXIS, thats probably more than the other Empires in this game, so give us respect right!), So it Would natrually be decent on the Attack as well as defense...

                  So attack and defense of 4, Coming with Gunpowder, and With a Shield cost of 7.
                  Up The Millers


                  • #10
                    I agree with you that the UU is lame. I would not agrue much with boast of inventing everything after 1000ad, if you cap it at around 1850ad, after that you invented basically nothing.


                    • #11
                      So thats 850 years being the Worlds Pioneers, Which leaves Americans erm... 250 ...

                      Face it, England Has the Greatest History of Empire left standing!

                      God Save the Queen
                      Up The Millers


                      • #12
                        Why "inventing things" isn't always so great

                        Dean Kamen's Segway

                        Maybe the American UU should be a 2 movement rate worker that can only go on completely improved terrain tiles Now that would be innovative!

                        Some other "great" US patented inventions:


                        Recommended: Bunny Syringe, Portable Nuclear Shelter, Kissing Shield, Wig Flipper, Cricket Gun.

                        It would also seem the Chinese have done some inventing of their own!


                        And for you Rothy, some UK patents!



                        • #13
                          My God

                          UK Patent No. GB1047735. Piping snow and ice balls from Antarctica to irrigate the Australian desert. The patent suggests this will solve the world famine problem. The snowballs accelerate under gravity from 10,000 feet (3,000m) high on the Antarctic plateau, reaching 500 miles per hour (800km/hr) at sea level. They are then pumped naturally through the pipelines, by the Coriolis force due to the Earth's rotation.
                          And I was worrying about a UU , Clearly a 'Pedrick Worker' , Who can irrigate desert tiles in One Turn when they within say, 15 sqares of an Ice Mountain!
                          Up The Millers


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rothy
                            So thats 850 years being the Worlds Pioneers, Which leaves Americans erm... 250 ...

                            Face it, England Has the Greatest History of Empire left standing!

                            God Save the Queen
                            greatest empire?

                            ROMA VICTOR!
                            I drink to one other, and may that other be he, to drink to another, and may that other be me!


                            • #15
                              KEY = Custom

                              In Master of Orion 2 one had the great option to customize different breeds with your personal favourite skills.

                              IMO a feature like this wouldn't be so hard to include:

                              ability to customize the characteristics of the civilization (two free picks).

                              Also, i really like the concept of special units: it makes several civilizations wothwhile, whilst otherwise they wouldn't: I dislike the Zulu traits, but from time to time I like playing Impi's.

                              So in a latter CIV-phase I would like to have every civ having different special units for each distinctive period (totalling 4!). Some special units may have similar specifics to others.

                              This would spice up the game considerably.
                              The more attractive the UU's, the more difficult the choice, the longer the game will 'stand the test of time'.

                              PS: Did you English guys know that the Flemish (Antwerp, Bruges, Gent) and the Northern Italian peoples had the first European cities to prosper during the Middle Ages (starting in the 12th century) and that the Flemish (up to WW1) allways caught up technologically second (after England)? Of course, Belgium is a rather ... lilliputesk country on a world scale ... nevertheless ...
                              " Deal with me fairly and I'll allow you to breathe on ... for a while. Deal with me unfairly and your deeds shall be remembered and punished. Your last human remains will feed the vultures who circle in large numbers above the ruins of your once proud cities. "
                              - emperor level all time
                              - I'm back !!! (too...)