Science City - worth it?

[SanPellegrino]

When I started with civ3, I was happy that at least the science city was still there, but it seemed not as strong than in Civ1/2.

(If someone has still missed the concept: build possibly colossus, copernicus, isaac etc. in a city with potential good commerce, usually your capital, develop this city, library university etc. and you get plenty of tech)

- In civ1/2 the science wonders worked exponential, now cumulative. In Civ2 I normally made more than half of my tech of my SC.

- The SC was excellent for caravans, you could make all your cities rich, by trading with SC. Also you got much cash from caravans from the SC itself to other civs.

- The SC was the only city you really needed to develop, other cities just building caravans, settlers and wonders - nearly zero maintenance

- science specialists in SC gave about 20 tech beakers in late game, growing beyond 20 was useful.

- highway is gone, you can't substitute colossus

That were my thoughts after first games, but I couldn't kick the habit. I tried, but next game on monarch I couldn't get a single early wonder - but colossus! (No AI cap on coast - lucky me). And SC was really useful that game, because I couldn't spread like in regent game before. Advantages in Civ 3:

- Colossus on higher levels more likely to get than other early wonders

- SC usually your capital or near - little corruption makes the wonders more powerful, the smaller the map, the more important

- chance for good starting position, there is usually a luxury nearby (hopefully near coast)

- if you head for single cultural victory, you gotta build your capital, why not make the SC

When I look at this points, it seems pretty obvious that the SC was more powerful in the predecessors, but still okay, not that overwhelming advantage anymore.

Am I the only one still using it or is it still common?

[DrSpike]

I try and get cope's and isaac's most games, but usually forgo early wonders. The first one I go for is mikes. The science city is still useful, but due to the 4 turn research cap less so than before. Still, you can make sure you're getting each tech in 4 turns and have the slider turned down so that you get more cash.

[vmxa1]

At Monarch and above it is very hard to get early wonders, you must make a beeline for one very soon and it is still ify. I have the AI beat me by 1 turn often. But you don't need them anyway. In the middle ages you should be beating the AI to wonders. I get lots of leaders as I war the whole time, so rush em. Colosus is the one ealry that they do not always get after right away, maybe they do not have a coastal city yet. I do not worry about research for sometime as it takes so long, I set to 40 turns until I am able to catch up to the AI.

[Quasar1011]

I think the science city concept in Civ 3 is weaker than it was in Civ 2. Yes, building the Observatory and Newton's College are still useful, but I find that having the literacy rating of your Civ being #1 to be most effective. The cultural effect of libraries and universities not only expands your borders, but helps you out in the tech race. Early exploration for goody huts is also essential.
Civ 3 certainly requires you to develop new strategies than used in Civ 2.
-Daryl

[planetfall]

As quasar mentioned, goodie huts are extremely important in early game and AI will try to out race you when you approach a good hut.

If available, try horsemen. Although in one game horseman did not trigger goodie hut response. By time warrior got there, the hut was gone.

bug? feature? your call

I have not heard of the SC concept. I will have to test it out. Interesting, may still be effective. I don't know about earlier versions of civ as civ3 is my first civ game.

[barefootbadass]

SC is better in civ 3 than civ 2. In civ 2 you only needed colossus to make more from your caravans and with caravans you could get 1 tech a turn even in fundamentalism with minimal science and WLTKD(to boost trade to the level of democracy). In civ 3 you don't have caravans so it is actually useful, for the tech, and for the culture.

Colossus is the only wonder I build myself in early ancient without a leader(which means the second leader), I start others, but usually to switch to later ones or to switch to my FP or heroic epic if I run out of wonders. This is on emperor, haven't played deity yet. Colossus is very easy to get, and the science wonders make it even sweeter.

[planetfall]

colussus helps science?

Huh, have to check civ3 help again.

I have for colussus features:
cost == 200
culture == +3 in city
effect == +1 each gold producing tile in city

I don't see anything about science.

My list of science increasers is:
library 100%
research lab 100%
university 100%
copernicus 100%
newtons U 100%
SETI 100%

Is my reference sheet incorrect, or am I missing something???

thanks

[KithrupFugitive]

Why Colossus impacts science

I think the Colossus does have a positive impact on science because commerce is divided between research spending and taxes. So if you have more money coming in due to the effect of the Colossus, then you are more likely to be able to set the research slider higher without causing your treasury to go into a deficit situation and/or more money going toward research for any given research spending slider level (as compared to what your research spending would be without calculating extra commerce generated by Colossus).

[mengo76]

The Science City strategy has definitley been "balanced" (or "nerfed", if you're one of those whiny ppl... ). Mainly because the science wonders are additive and not mulitplicative (i.e. 2 of them triple science output, not quadruple), and because beakers from scientist specialists are not affected by wonders or even libraries.

It still does make sense to put all the science wonders in one city, if that city is the one with the most commerce (after corruption). But sometimes you may build Copernicus in your capital because it's the best place, but then another city becomes better (e.g. if it builds the Forbidden Palace), so that would become a better location for Newton.

And as for the scientist specialists, useless of course. And so are the taxmen for that matter. So if you're not looking for the population to drive up your score, it makes a lot of sense to mine all your terrain, just irrigate enough to keep your city at size 20.

Because of the lesser power of a Science City, you need to develop your research throughout your empire. And the culture you'll get is an added bonus. Use a scientific civ if you think it's too expensive to build uni's in all your cities, it helps (although not with maintenance )

[planetfall]

forget science specialists?

Interesting, the only effect I had noticed from sci specialists is a slight increase in "score". This means it doesn't make any sense to have sci specialists in SC.

Guess I need to play 2 saved games and in one make 2 specialists in 10 cities and run for 10 turns, recording resources and costs at each turn and doing the same with no specialists. I would think with 20 specialists it would be clear if there is any positive effect in civ3.

Unless you know of some note or thread which already discusses this idea.

[solo]

All science is based on your total commerce, so since the Colossus adds commerce, it also boosts science.

Many things in CivIII make its version of a SSC quite weaker than the CivII counterpart. In CivIII, with all science improvements and wonders, total beakers at 100% science peaks out at around the 300 level, even with a favorable city site. A comparable city in CivII would put out 4 to 5 times as many beakers.

Why are CivIII SSC's so much weaker? Lack of superhighways is a factor, as is the lack of extra commerce from trade routes and the roads and railroads based upon them. The science improvements and wonders are weaker, too. For example, a city producing 100 beakers in CivII will add another 100 after Copernicus is built, effectively doubling the effect of libraries and universities. Not so in CivIII, since the doubling effect of the wonder is only used on total commerce (which is the base beaker rate from which extra beakers from improvements and wonders are calculated) instead of total beakers.

As mentioned above, other CivIII design features weaken the effect of a SSC even more, such as the 4 turn cap on research rates and a more competitive AI.

[planetfall]

4 turn cap?

I have not heard about the 4 turn cap. I know the AI is stronger, but doesn't mean much to me as I have no civII habits to unlearn.

Does this mean the 100% improvement only lasts for 4 turns? If so, what a handicap.

[KithrupFugitive]

Re: 4 turn cap?

Originally posted by planetfall
I have not heard about the 4 turn cap. I know the AI is stronger, but doesn't mean much to me as I have no civII habits to unlearn.

Does this mean the 100% improvement only lasts for 4 turns? If so, what a handicap.

This is actually a reference to the fact that no matter how many scientific buildings and wonders you have and where your research slider is positioned no tech can be researched in under 4 turns.

Rather than a cap, I think of it as a floor

[SanPellegrino]

"I think the science city concept in Civ 3 is weaker than it was in Civ 2. " Quasar 1011

"SC is better in civ 3 than civ 2. " barefootbadass

That's very interesting, how opinions vary and everybody seems to use a different style.

To planetfall: kithrup is right, colossus is not "+1 gold" but +1 Commerce which is divided in tax, lux and science. In Civ3 a SC has the tech output like 3-4 normal "good" cities.

I think it varys on map and empire size a lot, the fewer cities, the more the SC pays off. Last game on large map, I had only 20% beakers in average from my SC, less than 10% in modern age, because I had a lot of well-developed cities. During that game I had to decide to build either magellan or Isaac's in my SC and built Isaac's which proved a big mistake later. I was in tech lead anyway, but had to do a lot of naval warfare.

Also your playing style plays an important role, if you like tech-buying/-brokering, the SC may be useless, but I like achieve a huge lead in tech.

Next game I chose a smaller map, because late game is just too tedious. Emperor, and again, only wonder I was able to get is Colossus, so I will stick to it...

[SanPellegrino]

Re: forget science specialists?

Originally posted by planetfall
Interesting, the only effect I had noticed from sci specialists is a slight increase in "score". This means it doesn't make any sense to have sci specialists in SC

every specialist adds +1 to either tax, science or lux (look at editor)