On Tax Rates--more bang for the buck

[Veracitas]

Every time I discover a new tech, I always check my tax rates again to adjust the science rate. This is because I sometimes find that I am setting my science rate too high without any benefit given to scientific discovery, while all that commerce could be going into taxes. For instance, say that I could discover printing press in 4 turns while science is at 100%, while I'd be losing a lot of money. At the same time, I could be discovering Printing press in 4 turns while science is at 50% and while raking in a lot of cash. Oftentimes, after cycles like these, I need to raise the science rate again, however.

So, my question is this: in civ2 and SMAC, you could clearly see how many beakers it would take to discover a tech, and if you had any leftover from your previous discovery, it would add on to your new scientific endeavour. Does the same system work in Civ3, simply more covertly? Thus, is it actually NOT advantageous to lower/raise tax rates in accordance with maximisation of profit and research? Or, do the "beakers" always reset to zero after discovering a new tech (which would make this strategy advantageous)?

[Arrian]

To the best of my knowledge, the beakers reset. Thus, if you can gain an advance in 4 turns with either a 60% or 70% science rate, definitely go with 60%. Also, always - ALWAYS - hit F1 when you're one turn away from an advance. Most of the time you will find that you can reduce science dramatically for that 1 turn and still get the discovery, while raking in cash. Then reset for the next tech.

-Arrian

[Veracitas]

Thanks! I never thought of the change rate before 1 turn idea, but you're right: I can rake in a helluvalot of gold if I do that.

Can we be sure of the beakers reseting, though? I mean, is there any way to test this empirically? In this respect, firaxis seems to have devolved the game from civ2, making it more ambiguous how tech is researched (and i miss the beakers )

I also notice a lot more stuff in the game is ambiguous, like foreign reports, for instance. In the early game, I can no longer have glimpses of my neighbour's entire empire without spending a fortune. Also, I can no longer see what my opponent is researching, and how long it's taking for them to complete their research. The problem with this is it's hard to gauge how effective certain strategies are with the AI (for instance, how effective tech-selling is in slowing down the AI's research b/c they have to switch research to taxes). I guess it's better this way, though, adds an air of mysteriousness to faraway empires.

[Eryana]

One question I try to ask myself when I'm fiddling with the Science/Tax slider is what's the tradeoff? After found a few cities, you can see a big difference in each notch in the slider. There's usually a point at which there's a large jump in the time it takes to research the next tech. For example:

60/40 - 14 turns + 4 gold
50/50 - 16 turns + 5 gold
40/60 - 23 turns + 6 gold

I'm just making up those numbers, but you should get the idea. When I first started playing, I tried to always keep the science slider cranked up has high as it will go. Just my gut reaction.

But does it always make sense to keep the slider cranked up to the max? What if I can trade a few turns of tech research time for $$$? How many other people out there say "I'd let my reasearch take 3 turns longer, and actually get income?

More bang for the buck --- what's the value of bucks vs. beakers?

[Veracitas]

Eryana,

In the civ 2 early game, I would always crank up science as high as it will go. But in civ3, I've found that if you let research slide by maybe just one or two turns, you can end up making a LOT of money (sometimes vice versa, ie. your example). You can use that money to rush science improvements or buy techs/luxuries off of your opponents.

I'm currently playing as the Chinese, and I'm in the late middle ages. I currently have 2368 gold in the treasury (whereas most other civs are still struggling along with 0 cash, and, in fact, in debt--to me, of course). If I set tech to 100%, I can discover techs in 4 turns, but the problem with that is that I'm losing a lot of cash. But if I set science so that I discover in 6 turns, I can easily make 100+ gold per turn. About 90% of my surplus is tech payment from other civs, though. I'm thinkin' now that I have so much money, I might as well dip into the treasury to fund 100% science research...I'm just sittin' on that money, now, and it's not doing anything.

[Eryana]

And this all depends on what's going on in your game. If you think that you'll be able to use that money to buy techs of other civs, having some extra cash is great.

If you're isolated in the early game (on a continent by yourself) that money doesn't do you any good. If you have nobody to trade with, you'd probably rather keep the tech coming as fast as possible.

This is one of those things that I drove on autopilot in Civ2. In Civ3, I have to THINK about this. There are a lot of things in this game that I can't take for granted anymore, which I like.

[shayovitz]

Civ2 was different. You didn't have lost beakers and there was no 4 turns cap. Those two new features give you a twist to the ol' "just keep it on 100% science and rock" strategy.

To the question asked earlier on this thread, beakers are lost between research projects. Meaning, you start a new tech at 0, you don't get the "reserve" you had from your finished tech added to your new project.

Eryana raised a great point, one which I thought about a lot in my games as well. Do I finish this tech after 4 turns with +20 in the treasury per turn, or I let it go to 5 turns, and cash in 30-40 per turn ? I had to ask myself how much I value that extra turn in terms of cash.
There is no one figure to give it, it depends on too many variables- how much cash I have, how the AI players are doing, the benefits of this tech in terms of wonders, the benefits in terms of future techs, etc. At times I found myself lowering the science %'s to get a few more bucks, and usually I went for the fastest discovery because I had enough cash at hand.

It all depends on the specific point you're at.

[sophist]

Originally posted by Eryana
One question I try to ask myself when I'm fiddling with the Science/Tax slider is what's the tradeoff? After found a few cities, you can see a big difference in each notch in the slider. There's usually a point at which there's a large jump in the time it takes to research the next tech. For example:

60/40 - 14 turns + 4 gold
50/50 - 16 turns + 5 gold
40/60 - 23 turns + 6 gold

This is a rounding thing. Suppose you have a few cities that would produce only 3, 4, or 5 beakers at 100% research (12 total) on a tech that costs, say, 100 beakers (totally arbitrary numbers).

Research/Taxes    City1/City2/City3/Total    Turns

0/100                    0/0/0/0                            --

10/90                    0/0/1/1                            40 (maximum)

20/80                    1/1/1/3                            34

30/70                    1/1/2/4                            25

40/60                    1/2/2/5                            20

50/50                    2/2/3/7                            14

60/40                    2/2/3/7                            14

70/30                    2/3/4/9                            12

80/20                    2/3/4/9                            12

90/10                    3/4/5/12                           9

100/0                    3/4/5/12                           9

Gold per turn is 12 - the beaker total.

Now extrapolate that result over a few more cities with more variation in commerce, and you can see why the science rate doesn't vary smoothly.

[Easy Rhino]

some of the wackiness on a per city basis may also because of effects of libraries and banks (science or tax only)

ER

[Padmewan]

Sophist makes a good point about the "rounding problem" with trying to maximize your beaker-gold ratio.

Putting that issue aside, however, I want to dispell the myth that you need to twiddle with the sliders every freakin' turn to maximize your taxes. The way this works is that you accumulate beakers. If you set your research rate to it initial maximum, you don't need to change the slider until you have 2 or 1 turns left before the next breakthrough. Why 2? Because sometimes you might carry over too many beakers into the last turn that even if you dial your slider down to 10% you might still be "wasting" beakers.

So, stop bugging your domestic advisor and have more fun! (Until 1 round before the breakthrough).

[Veracitas]

Originally posted by sophist



This is a rounding thing. Suppose you have a few cities that would produce only 3, 4, or 5 beakers at 100% research (12 total) on a tech that costs, say, 100 beakers (totally arbitrary numbers).

Research/Taxes    City1/City2/City3/Total    Turns

0/100                    0/0/0/0                            --

10/90                    0/0/1/1                            40 (maximum)

20/80                    1/1/1/3                            34

30/70                    1/1/2/4                            25

40/60                    1/2/2/5                            20

50/50                    2/2/3/7                            14

60/40                    2/2/3/7                            14

70/30                    2/3/4/9                            12

80/20                    2/3/4/9                            12

90/10                    3/4/5/12                           9

100/0                    3/4/5/12                           9

Gold per turn is 12 - the beaker total.

Now extrapolate that result over a few more cities with more variation in commerce, and you can see why the science rate doesn't vary smoothly.

So, sophist, are you saying that civ3 ALWAYS rounds up? For instance, in the last case where you are producing 12 beakers for science, if you do the math:

100/12=8.33333333333333333333333333333

Which means it would seem logical for the research to take 8 turns.... ???

[ICMB]

My view is that like most things in Civ, it's a question of priorities and value add.

For example, say that at 40% research and 30% taxes you can research an advance in 6 turns, and make 20 gp profit per turn. This is pretty common for me, as I tend to go with max research that I can afford.

But, if you change to 30% research and
40% tax rate, the advance will now take 8 turns instead of 6, but your profit per turn may jump up to 100 gp.

So, for a 33% reduction in tech speed, you can get a 500% increase in your income. To me, it would probably make more sense to slow the tech a bit to make more money.

With the extra money you can buy other techs and resources and speed production. It seems like a good tradeoff to me. I'll have to try it out for a game or two to get a good idea if the delay really costs you in terms of technological development.

- ICMB