Scientific Development in the Anicent Era

[Grunthex]

Originally posted by CygnusZ
Yes... I'm also certain there is a cap. Poking around the editor I found that:

Bronze Working has a "cost" of 3
Monarchy has a "cost" of 24
Literature has a "cost" of 10

Pretaining to the issue of cost... it either is the integer itself (unlikely), or a multiple of it. The other possibility is that it is the base integer multipled by set constant and then some more added on by each technology learned.

Here's my guess:

Technology rate= Cost*10+# of techs

(Some of your stuff snipped out)

This is not a solution yet, but there is also a built in tech stagnation based on the size of your map. The Normal map size has a tech stag of 120. This is confirmed by the editor help file. The Large map is at 160. So techs come 33% slower on Large. Not sure how this all works, but you need to consider it for your formula. For the record, all my 32 numbers came from Large maps.

[albiedamned]

I ran a more detailed test, and here is what I found.

At the start I had 2 commerce, 1 from the city square, and 1 from the square I was working. It said 32 turns for my first advance (bronze working). I checked the city and it was producing 1 treasury, 1 science as expected. I raised science to 100%. The city switched to 2 science, 0 treasury. But it still said 32 turns.

I played a a few turns until my first pop growth. Each turn the number of turns remaining for the advance went down by 1. When I grew, I was able to work a second square which gave me 2 more commerce, for a total of 4. At 50% science (2 science, 2 treasury), the number of turns remaining was 22. It was 23 the turn before I grew, so no change. When I raised science to 70%, the city produced 3 science and 1 treasury, and the number of turns went down to 18. When I raised science to 100%, the number of turns went down to 14.

I then started another game. In the second game, I had a square which could give me 2 commerce right away. Add in the one from the city square, and I had a total of 3. At 50% science, the city put 2 to science and 1 to treasury, and it was 32 turns to the advance. But when I went 100% science, the city put 3 to science and it was 24 turns to the advance.

So all I can conclude is that at the start, it makes no difference if you have 1 or 2 science, but every point beyond the second helps. I don't have an explanation as to why this occurs, but that seems to be the behavior.

[CygnusZ]

Hmm... so it's like there are "beaker barriers". That seems a bit odd. Not every beaker gives science, but the 1st and 3rd beaker do.

Would we have to make a chart that showed exactly which # beaker's helped toward scientific development and which beakers didn't?

I'm not willing to let go of the theory (yet) that year in the game plays into the rate of technology development. The game seems to want to keep you from leaving the Anicent Age too early.

[Buck Birdseed]

What happens if, after starting research on a tech, you lower the research level instead of raise it?

[albiedamned]

I don't think it's "beaker barriers". Increasing to 3 science helped me, and increasing to 4 science helped me more. I think there's just no difference between 1 and 2 science. I also think (although I didn't test this) that it only applies at the very beginning when you only have 1 city.

I suspect what is going on is something like the cap I mentioned earlier. In reality that first tech should take longer than 32 turns with only 1 science, but the game does you a favor and imposes a cap at 32 turns.

[CygnusZ]

I can buy that.

[Sarxis]

There definately is something going on in the research calculations. Not that I don't like it, I just always like to know how things work.

[albiedamned]

Originally posted by Anunikoba


There definately is something going on in the research calculations. Not that I don't like it, I just always like to know how things work.

Me too. Hopefully a Firaxian will read this thread and elighten us.

[Grunthex]

Originally posted by albiedamned
I don't think it's "beaker barriers". Increasing to 3 science helped me, and increasing to 4 science helped me more. I think there's just no difference between 1 and 2 science. I also think (although I didn't test this) that it only applies at the very beginning when you only have 1 city.

I suspect what is going on is something like the cap I mentioned earlier. In reality that first tech should take longer than 32 turns with only 1 science, but the game does you a favor and imposes a cap at 32 turns.

This is almost certainly correct. Once I hit 4 science or so, I notice the difference with every point. And you never ever ever see more than 32 turns to research a tech. It appears it is a helpful limit put in.

Now of course the question becomes the mechanics behind it. If (numbers mine) for example tech A costs 160 science, does the game automatically give you minimum 5 science/turn, and go from there?

It *seems* that is how it works, but I don't know a good way to do the experimenting any further. Anyone with ideas, pipe up.

[Strollen]

One think I notice on the science is that it works differently than Civ2. Instead of each advance you get costing an increase amount. I'm pretty sure that each advance in Civ 3has a fixed amount passed on where it is on the chart.

So for instance if you research the fast path to Monarchy getting Monarchy will take a very long time (30 turns.) On the other hand if you research the stuff on left hand side most advance will come reasonably fast 4-10 turns.

[Lord Maxwell]

I recommend that you keep very close watch on how much science output really helps you. I noted this when I was down to 10 gold and losing 1 per turn. So I cut my science from spending 31 gold each turn to spending 15. Which made Republic go from 24 turns from finished to 26 turns to finished. I can live with an 8% increase in time for +15 gold per turn when I only have 10 gold. (I was going straight for republic, only stopping by masonry first, so it was pretty early.)

I'll watch the science spending with religious zeal now. Every turn must get a test tweak. (As the AI seems to love money for some obscure reason. It's too early for anyone to be able to rush buy with cash, so god only knows why he wants it. But he gives tech for my dough...)

[Steve Clark]

Superb work, albie, that was exactly what I wrote down last night in my first test game. This will require a new way of thinking.

Did I understand "Monarchy in 30 turns" for Lord Max's post? I think it's alot more than that. I haven't studied the turn length but I can envision Monarchy by 1ad in some cases.

[Ray K]

Guys, everything I've seen indicates that there is a cap of 32 turns for researching technology.

Do you know what this means?

When every technology is going to take a long time, ALWAYS research the most advanced tech. That way, you get the most bang for your beaker.

Once you have plenty of cities, you can then pick up the easy advances when they only take 5-6 turns.

[albiedamned]

That is a good strategy idea, Ray K. This might the first example of us users cracking the AI and finding ways to outperform it!

[Grunthex]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
Superb work, albie, that was exactly what I wrote down last night in my first test game. This will require a new way of thinking.

Did I understand "Monarchy in 30 turns" for Lord Max's post? I think it's alot more than that. I haven't studied the turn length but I can envision Monarchy by 1ad in some cases.

Making a staggering beeline for Monarchy, filling out most of the rest of the Ancient tree with my expansionist scouts, I can usually hit Monarchy now between 500 BC and 100 AD.

The advantage is that due to the 32 turn limit, by the time you're doing Polytheism and Monarchy, you probably don't have the tech base this early to dent the time, so you throw 90% into the tax coffers and let the freebie carry you to Monarchy. Then you're rich, and ready to rumble.