Express Path to Republic in C3C

[nbarclay]

The new rule that the first civ to research Philosophy gets a free tech opens the way to a gamble that, if successful, can be highly advantageous and even a bit unbalancing. In my first two C3C games, both playing the Mayas and restarting to get a river start (I absolutely adore the Agricultural/Industrious combo on a river), I was able to research Alphabet, Writing, and Code of Laws and still beat the AIs to Philosophy. (In my first, I even detoured through Literature before Code of Laws thanks to forgetting about the Philosophy change.) That let me get Republic as my free tech. In my current game, I'm starting a switch to Republic in 1450 BC, which is just a bit absurd.

[vmxa1]

Yes it can be, but I am not sure I would want to switch to Republic that early anyway. You need cities to be able to support the troops and it takes more time. Also I do not want to take the anarchy at such a crucial stage of the game. I now wait much longer than ever to switch (non-religious).

[Rasputin]

good to see they bringing back some of civ 2 to civ3

[DrSpike]

Yes, you can only really switch straight away if you have enough land to settle. But I've been doing something similar..........if you beeline to philosophy and take code of laws as your freebie you wont be able to research republic in much less than 50 turns even at full research. So you can abuse the 50 turn limit and build up 1000 gold whilst kicking any AI whose land you want. If you can do this early enough you can switch to republic when it's done, which is still pretty early. You also have a bundle of cash ready.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Nbarclay, could you give me any feedback on what you've noticed re: how the AI prioritizes Philosophy?

I've always been doing Alphabet->Writing->Philosophy, and then something expensive, or something the AI hasn't researched yet, as the free tech.

But I've also wondered if I could put Philosophy off, as you seem to suggest doing above, perhaps researching something like Code of Laws or Literature first.

Playing as the Romans (for instance) would you suggest researching other writing-shootoffs before Philosophy? And if so, how many?

Signed, a hapless fan.

[Dominae]

Re: Express Path to Republic in C3C

Originally posted by nbarclay
In my first two C3C games, both playing the Mayas and restarting to get a river start (I absolutely adore the Agricultural/Industrious combo on a river), I was able to research Alphabet, Writing, and Code of Laws and still beat the AIs to Philosophy...In my current game, I'm starting a switch to Republic in 1450 BC, which is just a bit absurd.

It's also absurd the advantage that a player gets when he or she restarts to get the perfect Agricultural River start.

I'm not trying to single you out, Nathan, but this just happens to be a pet peeve of mine. I'm actually going to post something about the Agricultural trait shortly.

Back on-topic, I agree that the free tech at Philosophy is a little powerful. It completely undermines the higher cost of Code of Laws or even Republic on the way to a government change. What would balanced the effect is if the tech would be chosen at random. This would make Philosophy a nice tech to race for in a builder game, but not something to build your entire strategy around.


Dominae

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Re: Re: Express Path to Republic in C3C

Originally posted by Dominae
Back on-topic, I agree that the free tech at Philosophy is a little powerful. It completely undermines the higher cost of Code of Laws or even Republic on the way to a government change. What would balanced the effect is if the tech would be chosen at random. This would make Philosophy a nice tech to race for in a builder game, but not something to build your entire strategy around.

This would also be better at emulating history, so I'm all for it... but for the time being, would you say Code of Laws is the tech to grab (for free)? Or is that only if you're beelining for Republic?

[Stuie]

Re: Re: Re: Express Path to Republic in C3C

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
... but for the time being, would you say Code of Laws is the tech to grab (for free)? Or is that only if you're beelining for Republic?

Code of Laws is usually the most expensive tech available if you get to Philosophy first, so it makes sense to pick it for free. But I actually picked Map Making in one game due to overall strategic considerations. Like so much about this game, it depends on the situation.

[Dominae]

To get The Republic free from Philosophy, you need to research Code of Laws first. That's a relatively expensive tech, and while you're researching it, an AI might ruin your plans and research Philosophy first. But clearly it's better to get Republic for free because it costs more. So it's a gamble: can I out-research the AI to Philosophy, with a detour to Code of Laws?

On Regent or lower, I would say go for Code of Laws first. On Monarch, it depends on your starting location. On Emperor or Demigod, I would not gamble and instead head straight for Philosophy. On Deity or Sid I do not expect to be the first to Philosophy.


Dominae

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Thanks for answering guys, that pretty much clears up my question. But I do have one more. What is the comparative value (if you know), trading-wise, of Code of Laws? I'm not a real big Republic guy, especially with so few luxuries seemingly about, so would it still be worth it to me to nab Code of Laws and then try trading it for, say, Polytheism? Or Construction even?

If you don't feel like answering, I'm sure I'll give this a shot this weekend anyways... no doubt my current games is going to go down the tubes as the last ~10 have.

[Dominae]

Start Menu
Programs
Atari
Civilization III Conquests
Civ3 Conquests Editor
Civ3ConquestsEdit

You're now in the editor!

Scenario -> Custom Rules -> Ok
Rules -> Edit -> Civilization Advances

Now you can check the costs of each tech!

---

I hope this helps you more in the long run than my simple answering of your question straight up.


Dominae

[DrSpike]

Re: Re: Express Path to Republic in C3C

Originally posted by Dominae


It's also absurd the advantage that a player gets when he or she restarts to get the perfect Agricultural River start.

Amen. With great land the trait is amazing.........if you restart until you get good land it's probably the best trait. For me, if the trait is balanced its only because sometimes you only get the bonus for the capital initially.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Yes, I suppose I should just sit down and look at the value of each tech. Still, though, those numbers don't mean as much to me as just knowing which techs are going to be waaaaay too expensive to research at anything other than the 50-turn minimum, and which are more flexible.

I read the thread (I believe it might have been started by you, Dominae?) about figuring out tech costs, etc., and perhaps I should review it. But one thing I took away from it was that there are certain techs that are almost always going to cost you the maximum amount of time researching, and some that are more flexible.

Writing, for example, seems to always take 50 turns to research, no matter what. Hence, I set my tech rate to 10% to get that bad boy.

I was just wondering if Code of Laws is similar, because never in a game of Civ, be it PTW or C3C, that I can recall, have I myself ever researched Code of Laws, since I almost never go for Republic. I either trade for it, acquire it through warfare, or pick it up via the G. Lib.

But I'm willing to change my stripes, if there's a good reason to...

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Post Script: Not that I meant to denigrate your reply. I should spend more time in the editor... I always think, "Man, I should review the base rules to become a better player" but always spend the time I do have just cranking out another game... which is often a frustrating process.

It's akin to, "Oh man, I should save this money for a vacation, but instead I think I'll just buy some beer".

Ok, sorry 'bout that OT fluff there.

[ducki]

Re: Re: Express Path to Republic in C3C

Originally posted by Dominae


It's also absurd the advantage that a player gets when he or she restarts to get the perfect Agricultural River start.

Well, since I'm no Aeson, I restart if I get cruddy land too. I'm not ashamed to admit it. I just don't like struggling that much when I'm (still) learning to warmonger. Yes, still.

What would balanced the effect is if the tech would be chosen at random.

That's not a bad idea, but with a little qualification. Philosophy is the original science. Why not pick a random tech that could be classified as "Scientific" - Bronze, Iron, Math(especially this one) etc?

Just a thought, though I think if the AI were modified(or rather the Philosophy tech modified) such that the AI valued it as much as the player, I think this might become less of an issue - still a game-winner, like getting a certain wonder under certain circumstances - but by no means a Template for a Win.