Proposal: Summer Epic Challenge

[Dominae]

Hopefully the map will be such that you will not meet all the civs at once. In other words, the islands should be far enough that Contacts with every civ cannot be obtained at least until Navigation/Magnetism. This should break the tedium of "micro-trading".

Personally I find micro-trading rather tedious even on Large maps...


Dominae

[nbarclay]

I'll definitely agree that Industrious is an awesome trait. Fewer workers => more settlers => more/bigger cities (assuming you want enough workers to keep up with growth). Fewer workers => less gold for worker upkeep. I could live without that in the interest of a more challenging game, but the idea of moving zillions of workers around a map far larger than a standard huge one does not appeal to me.

Also note that extremely high research costs on a map this size make expansionists' early access to Pottery a lot more potent than it would be otherwise. On a standard map, industrious civs can research Pottery as quickly as they can build a granary. On conventional huge maps, it doesn't slow them down too much. But in this game, I seriously doubt that even cost-2 techs can be researched in under 40 turns at the beginning. Expansionists will be the only civs guaranteed the ability to build granaries early, and getting ahead in the growth curve would tend to offset the disadvantage of having to build more workers.

I'm fine with the idea of having players choose from among (historical) maritime civs, as long as Carthage is among them.

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by alexman
True, the value of the commercial trait increases with the tiles-to-OCN ratio of the map. Under stock rules that ratio goes from 150 on a tiny map to 400 on a huge map.

But it takes much longer to kick in because you actually have to found or capture that many cities.

But if Nathan's OCN increase brings this ratio down, then the commercial trait might not be that great.

An OCN increase with 24 civs? The AI will spend too much time expanding as it is. I wouldn't think it would be reasonable to make this ratio lower than a huge map.

[Konquest02]

I'd like to play with the Americans for this one. Industrious and Expansionnist is really a must. I know they aren't navy-oriented, but they would rock on this kind of map...

--Kon--

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Konquest02
I'd like to play with the Americans for this one. Industrious and Expansionnist is really a must. I know they aren't navy-oriented, but they would rock on this kind of map...

Actually, the U.S. has had the most powerful navy in the world through more than a quarter of its existence (~1943-present). So it is, arguably, a legitimate civ to include.

[CorpusScorpius]

Re: Proposal: Summer Epic Challenge

Originally posted by nbarclay
I'm also thinking in terms of having the person who sets up the game (ideally a volunteer who won't actually be playing) choose a relatively poor and isolated (although not terrible or completely isolated) starting position for the human player.

Would the Human player be placed on his own little "island" ?Or would he share it or be close enough to communicate but not on the same "island"?

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Dominae
Expansionist gets Pottery right away, which is good considering that 1) you're likely to have few neighbors on your continent, 2) you're that much closer to Map Making.

For this reason, I think England is a top choice. It has a UU that comes just about the right time to boot!

Hmm, the more I think about, the more I realize you're right Dominae (as usual ). I completely forgot that pottery is a prereq for map making. Pottery is usually one of my first tech researches, if not the first. So I always have it well before I think about researching map making.

The English might just be the best civ to play this scenario. (wow, never thought I'd hear myself say that. ). When this comes out I'll definitely have to put some thought into which civ I want to use.

[nbarclay]

Re: Re: Proposal: Summer Epic Challenge

Originally posted by CorpusScorpius

Would the Human player be placed on his own little "island" ?Or would he share it or be close enough to communicate but not on the same "island"?

I'd just as soon leave that a surprise. Indeed, my ideal would be if Dominae would work out some kind of random factor for what he picks so there won't be much way of guessing. Anything from sharing a land mass with another civ or two to needing galleys (either ours or someone else's) for first contact is fair game, but needing the Great Lighthouse or suicide galleys just to meet our nearest neighbors would be a bit much.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Dominae
Expansionist gets Pottery right away, which is good considering that 1) you're likely to have few neighbors on your continent, 2) you're that much closer to Map Making.

Dominae

Really, with 24 civs, you think we would still have few neighbors? Not saying you are wrong, just asking.

[vmxa1]

I am not so sure I would want expansion trait. If you end up on a land mass alone, you will not get much out of it. You can get the land settle on your own and any huts will be yours as well. Pottery a bit sooner is a high price to pay for one of your two traits.
I guess it would come down to the size of the land mass and if you had company or not.

[Rhothaerill]

Normally the expansionist trait is my least used and least favorite trait because of it's limitations (i.e. once all the huts are popped it's qualities are essentially over). However with this much water and this large of a map, getting to map making (and the great lighthouse wonder) as soon as possible could be a big key to the game. You can meet your close neighbors, but you can also have a better chance to meet the ones farther away.

I do however think nbarclay is right that it shouldn't be necessary to have the lighthouse or suicide galleys to meet your nearest neighbors.

[Dominae]

If I design the map, I plan to make it as random as possible, so no need to worry about "guessing" too much. Of course, I also plan to make it challenging past the first few thousand years, so there would be some tinkering done, too.

The Americans were indeed a very naval civ. I just did not want to include them as they seem drastically more powerful (to me) to the Spanish or Vikings (I could very well be wrong...). It would be boring if everyone picked the same civ. But, if we have two Industrious civs, that should allow some sort of variety.

How about:

Americans
Carthaginians
English
Greeks
Spanish
Vikings

4 Commercial, 3 Expansionist, 2 Industrious, 1 Religious, 1 Militaristic, 1 Scientific + 2 with a relatively important UU (Man'O-War and Berzerk).

Let me know, I'm itching to see how well a Very Huge map accomodates 24 civs.


Dominae

[ZargonX]

Just for a bit of flavor, I might point at that the Japanese were quite adept at dealing with the seas for most of their history. Just something to get us away from the all-Euro roots

[nbarclay]

Even if there aren't any neighbors on the home land mass, finding that fact out sooner would give expansionists a bit of an advantage in lining up their plans. (And on this big a map, even a relatively small land mass probably won't exactly be tiny.) That, coupled with better average results from huts due to the absence of barbs even if there isn't any competition racing to get to huts first, would give expansionists a bit more than just earlier granaries. I'm not saying that's necessarily worth more than the advantages of other traits, but it's nothing to sneeze at.

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Dominae


How about:

Americans
Carthaginians
English
Greeks
Spanish
Vikings


Dominae

Don't forget the French (I might not even play them, for once ), but France had a big navy before a certain Nelson came along.

This will make 5 Commercial and 3 Industrious, and another civ with an UU during the Middle Ages.