Proposal: Summer Epic Challenge

[nbarclay]

By the way, a few months back, alexman snuck a change into the AU Mod that dramatically increases the cost of Map Making (16 instead of 12). As of AU 208, it's still there. I'm curious as to whether anyone has noticed changes in gameplay that seem positive enough and significant enough to justify keeping such a significant departure from the default rules.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by jshelr
I'm not sure we need to worry too much about the AI being disadvantaged on tech in the early going given the max water map. If we can't use an early war to extort, it mightl be tough to keep up regardless of the AI uselessly setting research too high.

With the way Civ 3 is designed, if keeping up isn't tough in the early game, the game generally degenerates into a cakewalk by around the end of the medieval era. So I'd rather risk having the game end up on the tough side if we don't have neighbors reachable by land than risk having it be way too easy if we do. Consider how many warrior-to-swordsman upgrades 120 turns of science at 10% can buy.

Nathan

[Dominae]

I've not played with the AU mod for quite some time now. I felt it was better to leave it alone for a while.
Whatever changes are included there will always be supporters and detractors. There is simply no use in arguing about what changes are good or not, because everyone appears to have a different agenda concerning the AU mod. If everyone could agree on the purpose/spirit of the AU mod, then it may then be worthwhile to open that project again.

Even with this simple game I'm beginning to see that there will be major disagreements on the settings. I suggest someone just say "this is the way it's going to be" and provide the scenario file. I assume the point of this game and this thread is to play Civ3 and not debate about its game mechanics.

Frankly, I'm a little hazy concerning the relationship between Huge maps, OCNs, REXing and research, so I'll just leave this all up to you guys.




Dominae

[Theseus]

This sounds intense... I'm in, for as long as my computer can handle it.

Re research, I think the target should be achieving 4 turn discoveries around the end of the Industrial Era, but only if your empire can do so at 80-100% science.

[nbarclay]

Dominae, in general, I agree that the AU Mod is in good enough shape that we can let it sit. But the change in cost for Map Making was done essentially unilaterally by one person in a spirit of "let's try it and see how it works," and I don't recall there ever being any real discussion since then of whether it produces any noticeable improvements in gameplay. Unless someone steps forward and says, "Yes, I think it's a significant improvement because...," I'd rather change the cost back to its normal value so there's one less change between the default and AU Mod versions to keep track of and take into consideration when switching back and forth.

[Dominae]

Will this be an AU course?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

As a side note to the interesting but difficult-to-follow (for we idiots) discussion of tech costs, I just wanted to note that any changes that push this scenario in the direction of "real life" would be beautiful... that would be the best thing about this super-huge map, ne c'est pas?

Anyhow, carry on...

[alexman]

Nathan, this "one person" performed a thorough analysis of AI behavior before suggesting that particular change, and he steps forward and says that it's a significant improvement because it encourages the AI to take a less predictable research path.

[Jawa Jocky]

Originally posted by vmxa1
If one of the goals was to make contact harder to come by, then making ships travel faster/farther would defeat that aim.
I can see doing something for the very late ship travel, say battleships and transports.

I completely agree. I would peg any of the improvements to Flight (since airports make sea travel less relevant) or Nuclear Power (reactors). I don't really care since I wouldn't bother with late game war mongering, but 15 turns to cross the ocean will deter everyone but the really hardcore.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae
Will this be an AU course?

I think it's getting enough interest to justify following your earlier suggestion of making it a 400 level course. The one catch is that if we do both standard and AU Mod versions, it will probably be necessary to generate the initial map under the AU Mod, then restore the default rules, and then put the special world size and tech cost parameters back into the "standard rules" version. (After all, there's no such thing as truly standard rules for a 250x250 map. ) I'll leave it up to you whether you're willing to go to the trouble or whether you want us to settle for one version (probably based on the standard rules).

[Dominae]

Not to be lazy, but I think it would be best if you all played stock (1.21) Play the World for this one.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by alexman
Nathan, this "one person" performed a thorough analysis of AI behavior before suggesting that particular change, and he steps forward and says that it's a significant improvement because it encourages the AI to take a less predictable research path.

How much of your conclusion is based on in-game experience, and how much on what you expected based on theoretical analysis? The games I've played since the change was introduced have tended to be unusual enough that I haven't picked up on a clear pattern one way or the other.

[alexman]

The analysis was not theoretical. It was based on testing, and the results are summarized in a strat thread over at CivFanatics.

Anyway, do as you wish with the AU mod. I'm done with it.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Theseus
This sounds intense... I'm in, for as long as my computer can handle it.

This is the one reason I am thinking of playing it all the way out. I want to see is this slow down I keep hearing about is true.
I have not played all that many huge maps, so I may not be in a position to judge, plus I always get the lastest hardware.
This would give me the answer once an for all.
24 civs on a monster map, if that does not bog things down, nothing will.

I was going to suggest AU3xx, but I was not sure what 302 was meant to be about.
I do think it is wise to use PTW 1.21 as the next addon will be at least at that level. May as well get use to it.

[Nor Me]

On the tech costs, I've seen a definite improvement in the AI's choice in techs.

Normally the most significant part of the change is not the increase in cost in Mapmaking but the decrease in cost of Mathematics. The only way I've been able to exploit the change is by getting a 40-turn Currency in early.

The increased cost of Mapmaking would probably only be important if the minimum research time is increased significantly. I doubt the even the AIs will do much better than 40 turns on an expensive tech that they research early on the settings that have been discussed. Except possibly on Deity.