On a losing streak...

[PrinceBimz]

Fairly new monarch player, been playing regent alot before. Right now I am on a 8 game losing streak! Some were really short, I am talking under 30 minutes. My setups have been standard map with all settings on random. Which I think all settings on random seems to make the game harder thats for sure.

Its the wars that are making me lose here and costing me my games. For example, just finished (and lost) a game which lasted under an hour. I was down to 3 cities so decided to retire and end it. I was dead last and losing in every catagory. I used to keep playing on when I get that small, even down to one city. Not this time though.

Problem in my last game I got greedy. I was doing really good at first, built 5 cities quickly in excellent locations. I ended up with Babylon as my civ and Zulu was my neighbor. I built up about 6 bowmen and fortified outside a neaby zulu city. Established an embassy and performed espionage on the city. Seeing it was weak, I decided to move into position and attack. Captured it within two turns. Then they managed to sneak a boat around and capture a weak city of mine.

I attacked their capitol and came very close to capturing it. I was doing pretty good and was even laughing and thinking how weak they were. Where I messed up was I had two cities building wonders, one the colossus and the other piramids. I hated to stop production and lose a TON of shields. So I continued to let my other cities (which was 3) produce the military units for my war.

Zulu started massing more and more units, eventually outnumbering me. I was forced to settle for peace by giving a size 7 city over Then as you can guess, things just went straight downhill from there. Thing is I had an upper hand and was winning this war at start. Was just doing so well to lose it all. I then just wanted to beat the zulu and get them back. This became like a new goal in the game for me. It did not work and I had to retire. Oh well, trying another one...

[PrinceBimz]

Oh another thing I would like to mention, I have been getting extremely unlucky in battles. Can't tell you how many times my attacking bowman lost to a defending archer or warrior some without inflicting any damage

[Vlado]

Sounds like a streak of bad luck to me... Are you micromanaging your workers enough? That was the key for me when I went up in difficulty, that in combination with REXing and enough workers did the trick.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I think your problem is that you need to get the timing of the higher difficulties down. Everything is MUCH faster. 6 bowmen is a good deal for taking the initial assault, but perhaps it would have been wiser to attack the capitol first. It would hurt them more, true it would be better defended, but you would be taking out their (likely) largest producer.

The other thing is going to multiple wonders that early on higher difficulties is very difficult. I typically only try for at most one (usually the Library) but have more and more often been playing leader roulette to even think of getting that ONE wonder in the Ancient age.

There is not much you can do for poor luck in battles, but I always try to keep offensive units in a poition to defend the homeland as well. You would be surprised how usefull chariots are as defenders in a well roaded, tightly packed empire while waiting for horseback to upgrade them...

From what you said, it seems you built your initial army of 6 bowmen and then switched over to wonders, figuring that initial stack would be enough for your first war. More often than not past regent you will need a second stack of 6, and it never hurts to have them anyway.

[JPGray]

Try laying off early war

A lot of times if you can't effectively manage the conflict and your cities at once, or you are too impatient to build effective slow-moving armies, the AI will gain a large lead on the harder difficulties. So if you quickly expand to about 10-12 cities on a standard map and play the AI off one another, you can get a better feel for Monarch. Also keep playing even when you are losing. It's a little demoralizing not to be the top dog, but it's difficult to fall too far behind in tech if your reputation is adequate. Comebacks can happen.

[PrinceBimz]

Uhhh...fellas... I just lost again I played all the way until my very last city was destroyed. I had 5 civs all declare war on me. It all started because I demanded persia get their units out of my territory. They declared war and I ended up losing everything. Because a few turns after perisa did the rest joined in one after another. Man I tell you, I have been getting owned.

I have been micro managing each and every worker as well. I think my next game I am just going to be a diplomacy king. I am just going to keep peace as much as I can unless I have an absolute obviously more advanced and powerful military. I lose because I keeping losing these wars. I will definitely make note of those tips, right now I need all I can get. I sure hope I won't be posting here again in another hour about yet another lose.

Oh I need to mention in the middle of this losing streak I had jumped back to play a regent level game. Guess what? Lost that too... I used to do pretty good on regent here and there. Maybe its just, uhhh I don't know. Like a good football team, somedays its just not their day. Anyway if I lose on more bloody game here I am going back to regent until I can do better.

I am wondering if higher levels such as monarch, effect combat? Like making it more difficult to win battles? Probably just myh bad luck I think with that issue. I will mention I had 4 catapults in one of my cities that were dishing out some damage to attacking units. When they got near I fired and damage alot of them, then they attack and I was damaging them even more. By the time some of their units attacked they would be knocked down 2 strengths from the catapults. At last, they call it the Hall of Fame? Mine should be called the Hall of Embarrasment

Well...trying another...

[UnOrthOdOx]

It doesn't effect actual combat values except against barbarians. It DOES, however, make the AI more likely to declare war on you, and gives them free units at the beginning and cheaper techs.

I hit a similar rut some time back, and occasionally have a game where things never go right, but I try to enjoy those instances and learn from them. (watching six of your recently upgraded swords die at the hands of a spearman defending a size 3 city on plains with no wall has to make you laugh...)

[vmxa1]

Try a stronger civ, such as China. I do not build Bowman, except to trigger a GA. I do not care for archer/bowman as they not going to be useful for long and do not upgrade for a very long time. When they do upgrade it is hapless unit anyway. It will be whacked by much stronger units.
I prefer warriors now that they can upgrade for a long way. Then get to horsemen, since they become Knights/Calv.
Why don't you post a series of saves. Start with 4000BC. Then we can see how it went.
Most of the problems come with too slow growth and workers not get full value.
Trying to build wonders that they are not going to get.
I do not think any of the issues are with the actual combat, more like not being in postion to avoid some of the combat and then having superior troops when you do fight.

[inca911]

Prioritize

I can see a couple quick places where you might find an opportunity for improvement.

1. You mentioned that you demanded the Persians leave your territory. Did the military advisor indicate they had more units than you? If you were percieved as weak by the Persians, demanding they withdraw is actually inviting attack. The AI gets a nice head start at the higher levels. It takes some time to catch up and you have to sometimes give in to their demands to keep the peace. I try not to have a large cash reserve since it is always demanded as tribute and I'm too weak early on to wage war. If I end up with some cash from trade/huts, I'll often upgrade some units for the inevitable offensive war.

2. You said you were building wonders in two out of 5/6 cities. Well, it's hard to do that and create either city infrastructure or a military. If you must build a wonder, just pick one and maintain production in other areas. Only having 3 producing cities at time of war isn't going to cut it and I think you already know that.

3. Do you rush-build in Despotism? If not, that's a great way to improve your civ. Fast temples keep population and happiness on track. Fast barracks give your military that extra little bit of experience often necessary to avoid troop losses and win wars. Even an occasionally built military unit like a Swordsman is sometimes necessary for a military push. Rushbuilding in recently captured cities also uses up those unhappy foreign nationals while building happiness in those who avoided the whip!

4. You attacked with only Bowmen? Even with the Babs, it is good to use some Horsemen to weaken defenses and not take losses when you send in the bowmen. An initial onslaught of Horsemen makes a big difference. Against the Zulu Impis, I'd also ignore the Horsemen but against other civs, it does help. I also typically wait for Monarchy with the Babs to lauch a war so my Golden Age gives the max benefit. Certainly it's situational, but I find waiting for Monarchy isn't too tough and pays off in the end.

5. Do not neglect trading with others. Definitely do not sit on resources to deny them to a far-away AI. If the Germans are far away, I will certainly trade them my Iron since they will pay a premium and use it to kill a neighbor. Of course I will not give my Chinese neighbors Gunpowder, nor my Japanese neighbors Horses. Usually, there are others who are able to take these surpluses off your hands.

So what are your general strategies/build methods/priorities when you play? That would help others diagnose the issue.

[Catt]

Originally posted by PrinceBimz
Uhhh...fellas... I just lost again I played all the way until my very last city was destroyed. I had 5 civs all declare war on me. It all started because I demanded persia get their units out of my territory. They declared war and I ended up losing everything. Because a few turns after perisa did the rest joined in one after another. Man I tell you, I have been getting owned.

I often learn more from a loss than from a win, so hopefully it isn't all bad.

In addition to inca911's advice about not demanding an AI leave your territory unless you're ready for war, may I suggest the importance of embassies and diplomacy? I try to establish embassies with numerous civs as soon as I have discovered Writing -- although I can understand the frustration at spending the gold necessary to build embassies, their defensive power can often be the difference between a winning game and an early exit. With embassies established, you are able to negotiate military alliances, and I find alliances are some of the best defenses in the ancient age. At the higher levels when the AIs start with extra units (and you are therefore seen as "weak" for some time) an alliance can turn defeat into victory. When the Persians declared war on you, a possible counter-move would have been to buy alliances with one or more of your neighbors and one or more of Persia's neighbors -- this will add a lot of units fighting on "your side" and also tie up a lot of Persian units with Persian defensive operations -- units that would otherwise being streaming towards your cities. Although I've had an alliance partner make peace with the enemy (breaking our alliance) and then immeidately declare war on me in an alliance with the enemy, that is a rare occurance. Usually, an alliance is at best the creation of a strong and powerful ally to fight numerous battles for you and at worst a purchase of "neutrality" that prevents Persia from inspiring a dog-pile on you as happened in your game.

Finally, one of the best defensive preparations is the creation of a robust road network in your territory. The freedom of movement it offers your units (when the AI's units are plodding along at 1 or 2 tiles per turn) means that your defense is highly mobile and much more effective, and means that your counterattacks are more frequent. A robust road netowrk and alliances often turns an ugly situation into a meat grinder for the aggressor, and puts you in a position to begin bringing the war to their cities.

Catt

[Arrian]

1) Wonders harder to build on higher levels.
2) Even if you build the wonders, you are sacrificing expansion and/or military to do it.
3) The AI has more military might on the higher levels, and is thus more likely to pick a fight with a civ that is perceived as weak (see point 2 again).
4) The tech pace is faster, meaning you have less time to do... anything that you want to do.
5) Despotic Golden Ages pretty much suck (I know there are situations where they are ok, but by and large they suck) and so does the Bab Bowman. I love the Babs, but their unit is garbage. Don't use it.
6) Unit upgrades are your friend. Instead of building an army from scratch, which takes a long time, prebuilt it (warriors instead of swords, chariots instead of horsies) and then upgrade. It will cost you cash in exchange for shields. Since shields are generally harder to come by, and require that your cities spend valueable turns constructing units, it's a good trade off. Warrior -> Sword is an excellent way to quickly produce a potent fighting force.
7) If your forces are limited, put them in a position to do as much damage as possible. First, kill off the AI's initial wave of attackers. Second, consolidate nearly all of your forces and send them (via the best defensive terrain) at a major enemy city (capitol is best) and take it down. The object of warfare isn't to win battles. It's to destroy the enemy's ability to fight those battles at all.

-Arrian

[TheArsenal]

Not by any means the expert here. But a couple of things in diplomacy I've found buys me some time to get the army up and running to defend myself, which lets me work on other aspects of my civ.

After I've done the bulk of my REXing*, I find that even if I have to pay for them, I get ROP agreements with as many civs as possible. A ROP can take an annoyed civ down to polite. Which in turn, makes getting Alliances much easier. And if it is a known liar and cheat AI, in the end, what difference does it make if it attacks you with or without the ROP? But the reduced chance due to the "polite" attitude, is worth it to me. When the AI tries to end the deal 20 turns later, which is also common, I will pay again, and as many times as I need, until I am ready to say "take a hike". If the AI comes to me with a crazily lopsided trade that I can not accept, say a map for my map and an important tech/resource I don't want it to have, I renegotiate it as a straight gift of gold.

The tough diplomatic call for me is figuring when to cave in to demands and when not to. Or more accurately, to fight now while it is lacking a crucial tech or resource, or fight it later with the tools I gave it.

An aside: What amuses me is on these boards, people talk in terms of playing "Regent/Monarch" as though they are interchangeable. For someone of my skill level, especially on PtW, they are worlds apart.

*I have made the mistake of getting ROPs before close to the end of REXing (easy to do on huge maps) and have had AI civ settlers walking across my land and plopping down in very annoying places with nothing I could do about it short of treaty-breaking war. Which of course defeats the purpose.

[vmxa1]

Despotic GA is so bad that many use that trick to hurt other civ when on EMp/Deity. Let the civ with ancient UU kill one of your units and get their GA with just a few cities. Very painful for them in the long run.

[Arrian]

An aside: What amuses me is on these boards, people talk in terms of playing "Regent/Monarch" as though they are interchangeable. For someone of my skill level, especially on PtW, they are worlds apart.

They are - only from the perspective of your citizen's happiness level. 2 born content.

-Arrian

[PrinceBimz]

What a turn around! My losing streak may be coming to an end. I am doing very well in my current game which I started and have been playing since my last post. I ended up as England, I never pick my civ I always select random and play with the one it gives me. Anyway, me saying in my last post above I was planning on being a diplomacy king, well that is working very well. I am avoiding war so far and I have awesome trades, great reputation and most of the civs like me. In fact All but one are polite, one even gracious. Its those wars that were making me lose so bad.

In this game right now I have been able to put science as high as 90% and even 100% for a little while. I have never been able to do that on monarch! My science is really doing well for the first time. I had a nice setup and good area in the beginning, I was lucky to get that. So the map is helping me out here. I am doing good but I am not winning, russia is on top and I am in third. Its alot better then before. This game has a long way to go though, I think the year is only 1000 right now and I have only 3 more techs to research to get to industrial age. I am just going to continue to try and stay away from war. Earlier in the game I did have alot of problems with barbarians. They were kicking my butt for a little while.

You guys have some good helpful info here. inca911 , I like you ideas there. It helps and I take all ideas I can get. Losing like I was I needed help there. Alot of it like I said was due to just some bad luck and my map and game. Just things were going so wrong. Well, back to my game where I am doing ok for a change