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**vovan** · November 18, 2002, 12:45

I agree with most of your points, Lucarse. Especially effective is your sentence under GRAMMAR: There are rules about this if you don't know what they are, find out.

I think if you are ready to criticize people for throwing sentences together without any periods, do at least proof-read your own post. There also are a couple of spelling mistakes, as far as I could tell...

That's about the representation of your thoughts. As for them as such, yes, I do agree with most points.

Especially that one should proofread her/his work. I know some people write their stories in the reply box. But that really is not the way to go. Not only because of the lack of a spell-checker, but mainly because it is almost impossible to write a good piece on one breath. The greatest authors revise their works over and over again. So should we. Do read what you have written before posting it. It helps, because then you can hear the repeating words, which are hard to keep track of when writing.

Another very important thing: do not be afraid to throw stuff away. The useless content is for school essays, not for good stories. Be fair and don't flatter yourself when reading your own story. Treat it as if it was somebody else's in terms of criticism. If a paragraph doesn't sound good, don't think "Oh, but if I throw it away, my story will be shorter than that of [INSERT THE NAME OF THE AUTHOR YOU THINK IS THE BEST ON THESE BOARDS HERE]." Chances are, if you think it’s awkward, the readers won't like it either.

Which brings me to the final point: take pleasure in writing. After all, it's not like you are making any profit off of it. Nobody is forcing you to do that. Writing should be fun. And if a story is fun to write, often times it will be fun to read.

One last remark (yes, yes, I know I said the previous one was the final

) about the use of words. As a non-native speaker, I use the dictionary a lot when writing stories or college essays. But I also know that sometimes the dictionaries describe only the general meaning of words. Some of them (or actually a lot of them) have certain colloquial meanings, as well as connotations imperceptible to an untrained ear, and not mentioned in the dictionaries.

To continue the previous example, the description of the word "enrapture" in the Merriam-Webster dictionary goes like this: to fill with delight. That is all. If I were to look it up in the dictionary then, it would be exactly what I am looking for to describe the awe of the landscape. Nowhere does it mention the religious connotation, or ecstasy. Therefore, even if you look up a word in a dictionary, do be careful when using it.

**Lucarse** · November 18, 2002, 13:04

I should have put a caveat for the non-english speakers or english as a second language.
To write a story in a language you do not speak as a native is a brave thing indeed.

As for 'Enrapture' its a clumsy usage as i said, infact strike that the whole thing is incorrect 'Enrapture' as i have just checked in the dictionary does indeed mean what you say how ever the word 'enraptured' does not actually exist(should have checked dictionary first).

And as for spelling, find a mistake i dare you...grammar thats another story, nobody's perfect how ever you will find correct sentances(not in this post).

I can't stand bad writing it bugs me,.... i'm such an english teacher...i'm going to go and stick my hand in a blender!.

**vovan** · November 18, 2002, 13:23

Originally posted by Lucarse
And as for spelling, find a mistake i dare you...

Originally posted by Lucarse
SENTANCE STRUCTURE

**Kull** · November 18, 2002, 13:37

Originally posted by vovansim
.....I do agree with most points.

Especially that one should proofread her/his work. I know some people write their stories in the reply box. But that really is not the way to go. Not only because of the lack of a spell-checker, but mainly because it is almost impossible to write a good piece on one breath. The greatest authors revise their works over and over again. So should we. Do read what you have written before posting it. It helps, because then you can hear the repeating words, which are hard to keep track of when writing.

Another very important thing: do not be afraid to throw stuff away........

Amen. One of the problems with "Internet Writing" is the immediacy of it all. The temptation to write, quickly proof (if that), and post is just HUGE. Unfortunately, in the days that follow you'll reread it and find all kinds of horrendous problems. Ugh. And even if you fix them, well, most people won't notice 'cause they read the first god-awful version and will never return to the thread, much less reread the edited post.

As a writer, I don't pretend to anything more than adequacy - but even that is only possible because my "Rise of Egypt" stories sit in a file for 2-3 weeks prior to posting (currently there's a 3-story backlog). The nice thing about chronicling a PBEM (Play-by-Email) game is that you have about a week between turns, and the stories can lag much further than that. From a writing perspective, this offers several benefits:
- Posting Discipline is enforced since each story can only be posted after playing a turn.
- It allows time to create several multi-turn, parallel storylines.
- The extended period between initial creation and posting allows for multiple proofing cycles, to include the incorporation of more recent events ("hmmm, now that I know we lost the battle perhaps some foreshadowing should be added to the earlier story").

As a result, there isn't a single posted story that didn't experience significant alterations. I can also attest to the need for spell checking. This had been performed manually (i.e. "that looks OK"), but I recently ran the whole series through MS-Word - and was chagrined to find a host of egregious errors. Ouch.

**ChrisiusMaximus** · November 18, 2002, 14:29

Although Im sure youre points are made in the interest of improving the standards of writing here on the civ 3 stories forum Lucarse. Dont you think your being OTT, after all this is a place where first and foremost fans of a PC game write their fan fiction.

I see no reason to drone on about punctuation and spelling to the extent you have. Some of the first time writers here could be put off with such hard nosed critisism and complaining.

Myself I find it hard to have the time to write let alone double check everything, and as long as it makes sense to the main audience then I am happy. In my recent story I made many spelling mistakes and what have you but sorted them as time permitted(Although some may still exist).

If this were a matter of writing for a living then you would probably be right, but as it is your required perfection does not matter. There is a great variation in the standards of the writers here as there is with the topics covered by them, and I for one am very happy to be able to sign on here and read the stories here.

Forgive me Lucarse but I do not recall seeing your name ever giving comment or support to any of the writers here on their threads. You may or perhaps not be aware that the single most important function of any one reading the stories here is to give feedback.

Whilst I dont condemn you for wanting higher standards I cannot condone your ranting, its not helpful to most of the writers. Some would be likely to be put off altogether by such severe critisism, and that is the last thing this forum needs. It is already the minority of stories that get completed, the most frequent deterrant to which is no feedback followed by negative feedback.

Finally Lucarse if you think you are so much better than others at writing then I await with much anticipation your soon to be posted story. I think that the imagination shown by all of the writers here is inspirational and I feel honoured indeed to be allowed to share in it. I suppose I could say Im enraptured.

Thats my two penneth worth, I shall not be responding to any reply you might feel you need to make suffice to say this is my opinion in response to your opinion.

**Bugs ****ing Bunny** · November 18, 2002, 15:42

A big thumbs down. It would be a crying shame if anyone were to be dissuaded from contributing for fear of the odd typo. We are all but human, after all.

Incidentally there's only one "f" in "definition". See what I mean?

**vovan** · November 18, 2002, 16:05

I see your points exactly, Chrisius and Lazarus. But I still think that lucarse is making a valid point, although maybe in a little extreme fashion. It doesn't matter if a person has a typo every now and then, it's just that when there is one in every sentence, it kind of gets annoying to read. Then, of course, nobody forces you to read, either. If you don't like the story, don't read it. And if you want professional-quality writing, go buy yourself a novel in the bookstore. Hmmm... Now look what you two have done, I'm starting to contradict myself

**steamthunk** · November 18, 2002, 16:57

I have to say I agree with Lucarse on his core points. Vovansim and others make some helpful suggestions about double checking and throwing out bits that don't fit as well. I generally try to force myself to re-read the whole piece before posting and usually with delay of 1-2 days. When you come back to something later you'll be surprised at how what seemed good when written can be crap when read back later.

I would say that if you're writing a story - a piece meant to formally be consumed for entertainment - then that piece should at least be spell checked. It's just so easy to do that there's really no excuse to not do so. IMHO this translates to a certain amount of respect for your audience. You wouldn't go see a movie (even for free) if all the creator did was spool out unedited footage for an hour would you? Reading lots of poorly formatted and spelled text strikes me as being somewhat analogous. It certainly doesn't help retain audience if they are not already predisposed to reading what you have to offer.

Grammar is a separate and more difficult issue to automate and grammar checkers aren't always correct so I'll leave this out of the discussion.

I do take exception to the use of the term 'author' (in single quotes) in this post though. It implies that no one here is a real author which is certainly not true. It also kind of implies that spelling and grammar makes an author. I think these things can break an author, but I'd have to say that many good ideas have been written about here in spite of the technicalities.

**Lucarse** · November 19, 2002, 06:04

Well I think agreeing with good grammar and spelling should be a moot point, finding extra 'f''s in a word is a pedantic pursuit when confronted by a raft of bad grammar and really clumsy use of the syntax of language.

I put these in as anchor points for the rest of the argument that i really wanted to concentrate on, and in which a reasonable question could be made about its objectivity.
I do however have some considerable experience in Creative Writing so I would like to think I know where of I speak.

Quoting some of your posts and replying directly would be again pedantic so I’m going to cover it all with out pointing out the holes in various statements.

I apologise if my post read like I was ranting, I was merely pointing out that writers should take more time with their work. i.e. Find a style and stick to it, don't switch too much from 1st person to 3rd person etc.
Develop a story, know where you are going, and use real emotions in appropriate settings.

E.G. 'the bridge officer chuckled to himself at seaman X's nervousness' all this happening when shells are raining on the bridge?, would this be an appropriate and realistic reaction, maybe forced laughter as he was kaking himself?.

You can even lend a bit (not plagiarise) from other writers in the arena, Tom Clancy being a good example, Technical warboys stuff with a touch of empathy, (only a touch mind).

As for comments on writers in this forum, well I think I’ll keep them to myself, as they would not be very well received. This is not a malicious statement simply an opinion (which are like *******s as everybody has one).

If I was however pressed to point out what I consider was the best example of writing it would be;
'Post Mortem : Two Thousand Years Later' By Dmitry Pleshkov

It of course lacks the romping shoot-em-up pace of other stories here (which in itself is not a bad thing and would not suite this piece anyway) however the language used and the development (building) of the story is excellent, other writers here should take note.

Anyway that’s enough writer bashing for me. Do remember constructive criticism can be a tool to help someone not a punishment.

**dannubis** · November 19, 2002, 07:22

Lucarse, I guess that your mothertongue is english, no ? Try writing something in a similar language (e.g. dutch) without making consecutive errors and without caching up on 25 years of experience in this language. Writing should be fun in the first place, for the reader as well as for the author. So read over the typo's and grammatical errors. Or perhaps, you could learn enough of the other languages to understand what other authors would write in their (probably nearly perect) mothertongue.

**Alexander's Horse** · November 19, 2002, 08:03

Re: A few tips for would be 'authors'.

Originally posted by Lucarse
Ok, This may be offensive to some 'authors' who have posted here, hopefully no more offensive than their appalling abuse of the English language.

Although I would not want to discourage anybody from writing stories based on civ games, as for the most part I enjoy them, however PLEASE take a few of the following points into consideration before undertaking another civ epic.

SPELLING: Write it out in a text editor with a spell checker, there is nothing more frustrating than spelling mistakes, or repeated words.

GRAMMAR: There are rules about this if you don't know what they are, find out. Inappropriate use of punctuation makes a story very difficult to read, the dramatic pause is a much maligned/forgotten tool.

SENTANCE STRUCTURE: if you don't understand this don't try and write anything longer than your name.
Proper sentences and paragraphs break up the story, add pauses, and stop it from turning into a breathless rant (not unlike this thread).

MEANINGLESS DIALOGUE: 'Have a nice day' said the president 'yes you to' said the solider. THIS IS POINTLESS ANOYING FILLER stop it, it has absolutely no use! it turns an interesting piece of writing into a book for 3 year olds, See Spot Run, See Spot etc...

WORD DEFFINITIONS: If you don't know or are unsure about the meaning of a word, look up it or simply don't use it.
There is nothing better at making you look an 'illiterate gimp' as the inappropriate/misuse of words. e.g.

'he was enraptured by the stunning vista ' not technically incorrect but the word Enrapture really means an Ecstasy or to transport with delight it has slightly religious overtones.
It’s a clumsy use; a better example to use would be 'Awed' or 'Taken By'. It would be a good opportunity here for a juxtaposition (look it up) Example:

'On rounding the brow of the hill he was taken by the beauty arrayed before him a stunning vista of mountains, forests and plains. For such life/beauty to exist in such cruel landscape (meaning political, social, ethical) seemed obscene to the solider.'

MEANINGLESS FLOWERY DESCRIPTIONS:
Think about the description you're trying to convey e.g.:
Bullets Rip the air not humm/buzz or any other mundane wanderings.
Explosions Render, Crump, Balloon not fizz or explode the statement 'Explosions exploded around him' is completely redundant!

To illustrate this look at the following,
This is possibly the best use of descriptive language in modern literature.
It is the opening first chapter to 'The Lord Of The Flies' Read on...

The boy with the fair hair lowered himself down the last few feet of rock and began to pick his way toward the lagoon.
Though he had taken off his school sweater and trailed it now from one hand, his grey shirt stuck to him and his
hair was plastered to his forehead. All round him the long scar smashed into the jungle was a bath of heat.
He was clambering heavily among the creepers and broken trunks when a bird, a vision of red and yellow,
flashed upwards with a witchlike cry; and this cry was echoed by another.

This paragraph describes the boy, the surroundings, the mood and the environment in one go. You can almost feel muggy steamy heat of the jungle and the scratchy undergrowth.

Although not everybody can be William Golding, but with a bit of practice your writing will be better for it if you take consideration of the points outlined here.

If anybody has a few ideas that I have missed please fell free to add them here, id like to see your suggestions.

NOTE: I apologise to the authors if they recognise their work in my examples, I have only used these as stand out cases, and it is not a reflection on the quality of the entire 'work'.

That has got to be one of the funniest posts I have ever read

**Alexander's Horse** · November 19, 2002, 08:13

Originally posted by Lucarse
I should have put a caveat for the non-english speakers or english as a second language.
To write a story in a language you do not speak as a native is a brave thing indeed.

As for 'Enrapture' its a clumsy usage as i said, infact strike that the whole thing is incorrect 'Enrapture' as i have just checked in the dictionary does indeed mean what you say how ever the word 'enraptured' does not actually exist(should have checked dictionary first).

And as for spelling, find a mistake i dare you...grammar thats another story, nobody's perfect how ever you will find correct sentances(not in this post).

I can't stand bad writing it bugs me,.... i'm such an english teacher...i'm going to go and stick my hand in a blender!.

"sentances"

Please, somebody make him stop, I'm getting a hernia

**Alexander's Horse** · November 19, 2002, 08:22

Originally posted by dannubis
Lucarse, I guess that your mothertongue is english, no ?

I see no evidence that English is Lucarse's mother tongue

**finbar** · November 19, 2002, 08:23

Originally posted by dannubis
Lucarse, I guess that your mothertongue is english, no ?

I would have thought not.

DEFFINITIONS

One too many Fs to appear in any English language dictionary.

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A few tips for would be 'authors'.

A few tips for would be 'authors'.

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