16th Nov release date completely unnaceptable !!

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Sn00py
Boris, I understood that, but Firaxis could lose a lot of money over this tiny action.

Look at it from this point of view:

If the rest of the world got Civ3 16 days before America, do you think most of American's Civilization Players, are going to wait for it? I don't think so, I think they'll be tempted to get a burnt copy or download it.

Yes, because the vast majority of people who buy computer games don't do it the day it comes out. I would personally wait 16 days or 30 days if I had to before stealing something. I am not a thief. I have no sympathy for the "I'll-burn-it-then-buy-it" crowd, either. If I shoplift from a store, they won't care if I insist I was eventually going to pay for it.

What's so hard to understand about theft being wrong? To quote the film Zoolander, I feel like I've been taking crazy pills!

[Rince]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

If I shoplift from a store, they won't care if I insist I was eventually going to pay for it.

Come on! That's a totally different situation. It's more like breaking into a bookshop and photocopying a book and put it back afterwards. Then come back after about 16 days and buy the book.

Rince

[drake]

It just come downs to this. Patience is a virtue.

A very good virtue for an individual to have. Impatience is a fault.

Take it for what its worth. But its a universally accepted concept.

[Rince]

I won't download Civ3 because i don't want to spoil the moment of buying the
game and playing it for the first time. And because i have the patience.

But impatience isn't the only reason for legitimately downloading warez, and
why should virtues be universally accepted?

Rince

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Rince


Come on! That's a totally different situation. It's more like breaking into a bookshop and photocopying a book and put it back afterwards. Then come back after about 16 days and buy the book.

Rince

So now we add breaking and entering to the list of crimes? Oh, the ignomy!

Personally, I don't believe most people who claim they will steal-then-buy. I may not be the best judge of human nature, but someone who has no qualms about theft in the first place isn't going to make a big effort to shell out money after the act is done. Maybe 1% of people who steal it will do that. It's far easier to assuage one's conscience with such lame excuses beforehand and then do likewise afterwards with claims that the game "wasn't good enough to pay for."

I don't mean to come across as Inspector Javert here, but then again, we aren't talking about stealing a loaf of bread to feed a starving child, either. It's a computer game, not a life necessity. There's no excuse for those who steal it, especially since in the long run they end up costing honest consumers more.

Blaming the company for "forcing you to steal it" because there is a delay in release dates for different countries is a crock of BS. This is no better a justification that stealing it because you think the price is too high.

[drake]

But impatience isn't the only reason for legitimately downloading warez, and
why should virtues be universally accepted?

Why are you asking me? Impatience is an ugly thing. It is a fault in any culture.

I'm not discussing warez at all...If thats the way one evaluates whether they want to buy a product or not, I dont care. I personally would rather get reliable recomendations from trusted sources, but thats just me.

[mtgillespie]

Boris :

A couple of points. I think your "1%" of people who would buy after downloading is an extremely low estimate. In surveys of napster users, it was found that people who downloaded music they thought they would like were far more likely to go out and buy the artists album than non users. And i know surveys can be made to say anything, i merely use that example to suggest your figure is out.

i can't speak for anyone else out there, but i'm sure i will buy the game when it's out over here. Because of that, i consider that all i'm doing is obtaining the game from an alternative source. I was told i could have it on a certain date, for whatever reason i have been let down. If there was a demo version i would get that instead. I don't want to ship it from the states in case there is a problem, as it would take weeks to sort out returns etc.

As for the company "forcing you to steal it" (your quotes), i haven't seen anyone saying they were forced. everyone makes their own decisions. However, it is very bad public relations to give a release date when you have no control over it. I still don't understand why they announced the UK date, when they avoided giving details for any other country.

Having said all that, for people who intend to download the game as a way of not having to pay for it, your comments are perfectly valid.

BTW, who's inspector Javert

[Rince]

Originally posted by drake

I personally would rather get reliable recomendations from trusted sources, but thats just me.

The only source I trust is me. Who else can you trust? Friends, Reviews? I've been disappointed of recommendations of both of them. And if one would happen to browse through apolyton forums, you could easily get the impression of ctp2 being a bad game for example.

Even if only 1% of warez dowloanderz actually buy the game if they like it, you can't throw them together with the real thiefs. That would be black-and-white-thinking which i really hate.

Rince

[drake]

I trust people who enjoy the same style of civ as me.

If I got a recommendation from them, I would certainly buy it. If they said it sucked, I would probably think so too.

Thats whats so great about apolyton So many opinions that are so incredibly easy to access.....

I wouldnt take a reviewer from some game magazine or anything...but a review from a dedicated civ fan? Yeah, I probably would.

[Rakki]

play it, like it ? play it some more, buy it.



i don't trust my friends to make recommendations on games. Most of 'em are trigger happy quakeheads. So while they were playing Quake I was playing Delta Force.

when you venture away from the "what's hot at your local shop" you have to be a bit more discerning about what you choose to buy......


"The herd mentality means you don't have to think. It doesn't mean the herd is necessarily going the way you want to go. "

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by mtgillespie

BTW, who's inspector Javert

Inspector Javert is the primary antagonist in Les Miserables, the greatest French novel ever (IMHO)! Javert is police officer who relentlessly hounds the hero, Jean Valjean, over 17 years. Valjean spends 19 years in prison for stealing a loaf of bread to feed his sister's starving son (under early 19th century French criminal justice, this was entirely plausible). After he is released, Valjean breaks parole and tries to start a new life under a new identity. But Javert is constantly on his trail, as Javert believes in an ultra-strict code of law and order, and anyone who violates the law to any degree is unredeemable. In the end (not to ruin the story), Valjean saves Javert's life during a student revolt in Paris. Javert then lets Valjean go free, and since he can't reconcile his black-and-white sense of duty with his sense of compassion for the man who saved him, Javert goes and chucks himself off a bridge into the Seine River.

But I digress...

I don't know about the statistics, but I'm confident most people who pirate software/music/movies/etc. never end up paying for them.

You may intend to pay for it, but I bet you are the exception rather than the rule. And it is those non-exceptions that are costing consumers more $$. But is stealing then paying still stealing? Yes. And when these theives who have pirated the game see you downloading it, they aren't thinking that you will pay for it. They merely see a demand for their stolen product, so they are encouraged to keep stealing.

The "forcing to steal" was a reaction to arguments that the disparity in release dates somehow justified piracy. It doesn't. So what if Firaxis made a mistake about the release date? Does that give someone the right to steal? Not at all.

[mtgillespie]

Well, even if you can't say you changed my opinion, at least you manged to increase my "culture rating" slightly

[Skanky Burns]

Originally posted by drake
It just come downs to this. Patience is a virtue.

A very good virtue for an individual to have. Impatience is a fault.

Take it for what its worth. But its a universally accepted concept.

Give me a break. I agree, patience is a good thing to have, but knowing when to have it is even better. Who gives a **** that someone is playing a game thats not available in their country yet, if the game is going to be bought by them?? Denying yourself something because its 'technically bad', even though it doesnt hurt anyone at all is pointless and stupid.

Note, this only applies to people who download the game while its not out in their country. The people you were attacking for their "lack of patience". Somehow i dont think that your high estimation of patience will stop you playing the game as soon as its available to you.

[Khab]

Boris,

I'm right now being torn between waiting for it to buy it, or trying to find it warez'd on the 30th - I'd love to play it ASAP - this is the game I've been waiting for for five years. On the other hand, I'd lose a lot of that 'magic' feeling when you open the box, get the manual and disc out, and smell the "new game smell" (to use one of Rich LaPorte's favourite expressions).

Realize this - barring finding the game being totally unplayable upon warezdownload, I'll buy it. If for nothing else so that I push some dough towards CivIV . Now, Maybe I should be patient. On the other hand, when I don't HAVE to be patient, it's a hell of a lot harder to be so.

You have the luxury of living in the US, getting it on the 30th (one of the few pros of living there . This makes all your calling anyone who wants CivIII at the same time as you a thief a bit hollow, IMHO.

It's not easy, basically being told you're not worth enough to make an effort for - not as much as some others, at least. And I don't even want to think about the UK players, which literally have been lied to, it seems ('course we all have been, considering MP, but hey...).

Anyway, the jury in my head is still out on this one. And it's not an easy call.

[DanS]

Doesn't the game have to pass the censors or something? You brits have some funny laws...