Spite and Malice....

[Velociryx]

Nope....I'm definitely not making excuses or covering bases in the event of a defeat, by the way.

I'm just expressing concern for what is, and has become a very real problem in this game.

And it IS a problem when people feel the only alternative they have is to simply leave the game to try and get away from it.

This seems to be the place where we differ. I see that as a real problem, for this game, for the people who felt they had to leave, and for the gaming community in general.

To answer your question, by the way, no. No such pre-game analysis was done by me, and I am unaware of ANY such effort anywhere on our team. I have done that ONCE, in a 3-way magic: the gathering game, picking on the guy I *knew* was the better player and had the better card stock, and you know what happened? That was, quite frankly, the least fun game I have ever played. It was a grudge match, and we both knew it. We all knew it, and it left us incapable of just sitting down for a casual game for months after.

So...that was my singular flirtation with bringing external factors into the equation.

I have been an avid gamer since age 8. Have designed a total of six games, and am working on a seventh. The experience has taught me a fair bit about game theory in general, and in the case of these demo games, that experience has prompted me to the following conclusions:

* Civ3 is actually relatively poorly designed for this purpose (the purpose for which we are using it), specificially because of the time required to complete a game.

* Given that, the overwhelming reason why people still seek to play these types of games must lie with something else....and for most (myself included), I would imagine that the answer lies in the opportunities for social interaction with fellow civ3 affecinados.

* ENJOYABLE social interaction is impossible when some players enter the game in "headhunter mode" - the two simply cannot co-exist, because of the inherent hostility the former brings to the environment.

* Given the above, headhunting, while a viable "strategy" is destructive to the social environment that IS the game, and thus, destructive to the game itself.

* Headhunting is ultimately unnecessary, because the same goals can be achieved based solely on in-game interactions, on the thinking that the stronger players will rise to positions of in-game threat, at which time they will be dealt with to the best of each player's abilities to do so.

* Because headhunting is ultimately unnecessary, it is also unnecessarily destructive to the gaming environment.

And that is the basis of the thinking that prompted the initial post, because I WANT to enjoy this game. I want an environment that's not so filled with personal animosity that it prompts people to simply leave it in disgust.

And I do not think I am alone.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

And Togas....you ROCK!

-=Vel=-

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

The only team I know of that did any headhunting was GS, when they went headhunting in the strat forum for the brightest and smartest people they could find. The rest of the teams pretty much formed on themes and people interested in playing those themes. None of them went headhunting for specific player types.

Roleplay - Roleplaying
Glory of War - Warmonger/Mercenary Code Strategy
Lux Invicta - the worship of Trip
Neu Demogyptica - members of the German Webring Forum
Legoland - Builder strategy
Vox Controli - Not sure, kinda got a late start

[Shiber]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Actually, I'm now in charge of the Military.

I thought aggie was in charge.

Perhaps you just think that you are in charge of the military. You know, the person in the battlefield yelling "CHAAAARGE!!" is not necessarily the general. In fact, most generals have lackeys to do these kind of jobs.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Nope, Aggie is now Emperor.

Ghengis is the MAD CoW

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Shiber
have lackeys to do these kind of jobs.

What kind of lackey does that make you?

[Velociryx]

GS was formed around a theme, just like the others you mentioned. Nothing more, nothing less.

The difference is that no one on the GS team entered this game with the mindset of "let's get GoW" or "let's get Vox"

But we felt it almost from the game's inception. The proof lies in the fact that we've lost members, who left expressing these same sentiments.

Now, you could argue that they were all just suffering under the same delusion, but I don't buy it, especially not with strong evidence to the contrary.

And I thought it was something that needed to be brought up.

-=Vel=-

[bongo]

What surprises me is the amount of feelings people put into this.

It's a game and we all want to win. All teams will do whatever they think is appropriate to achieve that goal. That includes backstabbing, unprovoced wars, dogpiling, shifting alliances, interfering with other teams plans and so on.

At some point GoW and ND decided that RP was ripe for picking. It's not unheard of that two nations ally against a third to improve their own change of winning. None should be surprised that RP didn't like the prospect of extinction and seeked help where they could find it, even if the price was high. GS' inteference on Borconia was no surprise either. Being the strongest civ they clearly didn't want competition from a GoW-ND alliance.

All this have made people upset but it's also what makes this game so much more interesting than a pure SP-game vs multiple predictable AI's. I'm not saying that you should ignore insults coming in this forum, just remember that they are part of PTWDG1 and only that.

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by Velociryx
GS was formed around a theme, just like the others you mentioned. Nothing more, nothing less.

The difference is that no one on the GS team entered this game with the mindset of "let's get GoW" or "let's get Vox"

But we felt it almost from the game's inception. The proof lies in the fact that we've lost members, who left expressing these same sentiments.

Now, you could argue that they were all just suffering under the same delusion, but I don't buy it, especially not with strong evidence to the contrary.

And I thought it was something that needed to be brought up.

-=Vel=-

And the fact your competitors are all saying that they DID NOT go after GS means nothing.
We have all joined this grand conspiracy to keep the truth from GS ?

I can acknowledge GS have a strong team
I can acknowledge that team analysis is done.
I can acknowledge that headhunting (right or wrong) occurs in some games.

But there has been no-one posting on this forum or any other forum, that they went into this game to specifically target GS. In fact everyone is saying the exact opposite.

The only people who are saying it occured are from GS.
This is not proof of it's existence.

GoW have based all game decisions made on in-game factors.

RP was the Bobian bully. ND & GoW formed an alliance and have taken action.
GS have invaded Bob, Gow & ND are taking action.


GoW has certainly not gone out of their way to target GS for destruction. GS are doing it quite well by themselves by making poor decisions.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Velociryx
GS was formed around a theme, just like the others you mentioned. Nothing more, nothing less.
-=Vel=-

What theme? You still don't have a theme?

Regardless, you went on and on about headhunting and to my knowledge GS was the only team to practice it.

[Velociryx]

There is no conspiracy, H_E, and that you keep going back to this phantom point tells me that you miss the point completely.

There ARE people leaving this game to get away from the personal animosity.

You can pretend otherwise if you choose to, but that's a fact.

They have given their reasons for leaving.

They're not alone in their feelings, but some of us have decided to stick it out regardless, so....happy hunting....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

GF....if you don't know what our theme is....I can't tell you....

-=Vel=-

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

I know what your theme is, "Let's ignore everyone till they get annoyed and wipe us out of the game."

Headhunting's been over for quite awhile, the game started long ago.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Velociryx
GS was formed around a theme, just like the others you mentioned. Nothing more, nothing less.

The difference is that no one on the GS team entered this game with the mindset of "let's get GoW" or "let's get Vox"

But we felt it almost from the game's inception. The proof lies in the fact that we've lost members, who left expressing these same sentiments.

Now, you could argue that they were all just suffering under the same delusion, but I don't buy it, especially not with strong evidence to the contrary.

And I thought it was something that needed to be brought up.

-=Vel=-

Yep, Trash Trip's Ass was formed as a theme

I really don't think anyone ENTERED the game as 'let's get GS'.

I will say for GoW we have evolved into that, or more of a 'let's kick GS of Bob'.

Did we look at the teams before the start? Yes, we tried to predict play styles. Did we target teams for destruction before the game started? No.

Lux caught our sights because they were dead anyway, and cleared room for our growth.

Roleplay, mostly due to the personality conflicts between GF and Togas, and the ultimatums(sp) that Togas handed us at that time. This is, perhaps a bit silly to some, but does it matter?

When Vox attacked GS, we were hired to assist. This was a job to us, nothing more. Sure, we would have preferred to have Vox win that confrontation for the simple fact that they hired us, and we felt GS would potentially hold a grudge against us at accepting a job that was against GS's best interest.

GS was never a target until the city gifting. Even now, if they were to leave, I believe that many on the team would agree to resume normal relations despite some hard feelings, of which there are some now.

As far as myself, yes I have hard feelings towards GS now. No, I don't think they betrayed us. I think they insulted us in the way they chose to assist RP and in some reasons given in private for doing so. I feel they in essence told us "We don't want to expand ND, and we don't trust you to play Civ well enough to act as a balance for ND, therefore we will stop it."

Again personal opinion, and perhaps I am wrong, but I feel that GS has looked down thier nose and decided GoW doesn't play well enough, that ND is the only real nation on Bob, and that GS wants to prevent ND becomming powerfull with us as a Vassal. I am a bit insulted by this, and could very well be wrong, but have been told, or had implied, such from more than one source many times. So yes, GS is now a target of mine.

[Velociryx]

/me shakes head sadly.

Okay....okay....I surrender.

You guys are correct. 100% correct. There is no spirit of animosity in this game, and even though people have SAID, point blank that they engaged in headhunting, it is utterly irrelevant.

No one has left the game because it sucked all the life and fun out of it.

The social interaction OF the game has not suffered AT ALL because of it.

The ones who claim to have were all suffering from a poor, misguided delusion.

In short, there's no problem, which means there's nothing to discuss.

Is that better?

Is that more in keeping with what you would prefer to hear?

-=Vel=-

PS: And GF - no, GS's theme is not "ignore everyone" - although given the all-too-detectable undercurrent of hostility in the forums, I can easily see why they'd not actively participate.

I knew when I posted it that the reaction would float somewhere between nonchalance and outright denial, but as an increasing number of people begin vanishing both from the public fora and the game as a whole, perhaps....just perhaps, there will be an acknowledgement that there is maybe a problem here.

Till then, I don't suppose I have any more to say, except "happy hunting."

-V.