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The Issue of "Bravery" and "Cowardice"

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  • The Issue of "Bravery" and "Cowardice"

    The issue of "bravery" and "cowardice" has been brought up by a number of people of late and it's worth noting something interesting about this.

    RP Team might claim that ND could have used their UU's and their GA to take on RP Team by themselves and it's a mark of "cowardice" that they were so afraid of Spain that they felt compelled to enlist the support of GoW... a fair fight was too scary for them, they needed overwhelming odds or they were too chickens--t to do it.

    RP Team might make the same claim of Glory of War, who despite their name, has been too "cowardly" to invade anyone until they could gang up with someone else.

    GoW could claim that RP Team has been supposedly "cowardly" in other areas, such as the Lux war or the Vox war.

    ND could claim that RP Team's tactical actions this turn have been "cowardly".

    RP Team could claim that when GoW's army ran away from the battle we prepared for them on Watch Mountain rather than charging the mountain with their stack of riders, that they were "cowardly".

    GoW could claim that RP Team's consigning of Bilbao to defeat was "cowardly".

    It is my argument that NONE of these actions are fairly described as "cowardly" because the adjectives brave and cowardly have no place in inter-state relations. In international relations, "Cowardly" is most often merely a derogetory term used by one's enemies to describe prudent actions in one's own interests. "Brave" is merely a term people use to justify their own foolish actions.

    If ND had attacked RP Team alone, some might call it "brave", but it would have been foolish.

    If GoW had attacked RP Team alone, some might call it "brave", but it would have been foolish.

    Many things RP Team might have done in the past concerning Lux or other things might have been called "brave", but would have been foolish.

    RP Team could certainly have simply allowed many of their cities to be captured freely by the enemy or attempted pointless tactics we know would fail utterly in the face of overwhelming ND odds. Some might have called this "brave", but it would have been foolish.

    GoW could have attacked RP's Army sitting on top of Watch Mountain and some might have claimed this "brave", but it would have been foolish.

    RP Team could have, when GoW's army ran away, chased after it this past turn rather than writing off the city GoW went after and some might have called the chase "brave", but it would have been foolish.

    I'm sure more examples of this will undoubtedly crop up over the course of this war. The enemies might refer to each other as "cowards", but it should be recognized that this is a pretty lousy form of whining. For, as the Roman historian Livy shares with us concerning the Punic Wars and Rome's "cowardly" tactics:

    "Never mind if they call your caution timidity, your wisdom sloth, your generalship weakness; it is better that a wise enemy should fear you than that foolish friends should praise" - Livy (Roman historian, 59 B.C.E. - 17 C.E.), quoting Fabius in The War with Hannibal

    ---------------

    So cheers to our enemies and let us settle matters upon the field of battle.
    Long-time poster on Apolyton and WePlayCiv
    Consul of Apolyton from the 1st Civ3 Inter-Site Democracy Game (ISDG)
    7th President of Apolyton in the 1st Civ3 Democracy Game

  • #2
    Re: The Issue of "Bravery" and "Cowardice"

    Originally posted by Arnelos
    RP Team might claim that ND could have used their UU's and their GA to take on RP Team by themselves and it's a mark of "cowardice" that they were so afraid of Spain that they felt compelled to enlist the support of GoW... a fair fight was too scary for them, they needed overwhelming odds or they were too chickens--t to do it.
    No insults!

    Comment


    • #3
      I have no issues deciding if an action should be defined as brave or cowardly. Each team acts in whatever manner best increases their chances of winning.


      Arnelos, if you wish to have a lively discussion, then your question should be

      Were any of the above examples "In the spirit of the Game" or "exploitation of the game mechanics."

      Note that I believe nothing could be listed as illegal, as there were no rules agreed to at the beginning of the game, but for example...RP could claim GoW's use of a "loophole" to attack while in a MPP as not within the spirit of the game



      Regs
      "No Comment"

      Comment


      • #4
        I like this so far. So long as everybody continues to not let this game effect the personal relationship that we have with each other, this will continue to be fun, win or loose.
        Founder of The Glory of War, CHAMPIONS OF APOLYTON!!!
        '92 & '96 Perot, '00 & '04 Bush, '08 & '12 Obama, '16 Clinton, '20 Biden, '24 Harris

        Comment


        • #5
          (puts gun away)

          You're right, Donegal.

          (wipes tear from eye)
          Empire growing,
          Pleasures flowing,
          Fortune smiles and so should you.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The Issue of "Bravery" and "Cowardice"

            So is it "Bravery" or "Cowardice" that causes a team to give up two of their cities in bribe payment to another team for aid? What's wrong? Didn't anyone like you and want to come to your aid without bribe cities?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Re: The Issue of "Bravery" and "Cowardice"

              Originally posted by GhengisFarb
              So is it "Bravery" or "Cowardice" that causes a team to give up two of their cities in bribe payment to another team for aid? What's wrong? Didn't anyone like you and want to come to your aid without bribe cities?
              Bribe? If that's our "bribe", it's a pretty lousy one...

              We realized we simply didn't have the troops to defend those cities, so we were basically faced with the Lux Invicta dilemna. Do you lightly defend them and let them fall to the enemy that way? Do you raze them so at least they won't fall into the enemy's hands at all? Or do you gift them away to another civ that your enemy must declare war on to take the city?

              We chose the last of those options. Not because the measly trade GS would get out of them would be anything highly influential, but because we'd rather GS be picking up 1 trade per turn than ND or GoW picking up far more and using them as military bases against us if it was even possible to avoid that. And who knows... if GS were to hold on to them and by some miracle we survived the war, perhaps we could eventually buy them back? Almost certainly not, but it's better than nothing.

              At the very least, it at least creates/created a chance that the cities would "survive", but not in ND/GoW hands.

              As for GS, I'm sure they don't mind the extra 1 trade/turn, though they serve little other purpose right now. It's interesting to note that we originally offered to give cities to both GS and Lego, but Lego turned us down due to an agreement with ND. Their loss. At worst they would have picked up a few turns of needed happiness when ND declared war on them
              Long-time poster on Apolyton and WePlayCiv
              Consul of Apolyton from the 1st Civ3 Inter-Site Democracy Game (ISDG)
              7th President of Apolyton in the 1st Civ3 Democracy Game

              Comment


              • #8
                I will certainly not comment on our reasons to accept the cities in public, but one thing you might have overseen, Arnelos: if you lose a city, you lose happiness in WW. Indeed, you gain happiness when someone declares war on you, but those two effects cancel each other out to large extent.

                DeepO

                Comment


                • #9
                  *** This is NOT an official position of the GoW. ***

                  I had this happen in a PBEM. It is a cheezy tactic.
                  In my game, my response was that the transfer of ownership was not recognized, and I went ahead and conquered all of the cities.

                  In my opinion.. it is an abuse of the game mechanics.

                  Boo ... Hiss ... @ RP

                  *** Personal opinion only ***

                  {edit - But not an illegal move BTW}
                  "No Comment"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
                    *** This is NOT an official position of the GoW. ***

                    I had this happen in a PBEM. It is a cheezy tactic.
                    In my game, my response was that the transfer of ownership was not recognized, and I went ahead and conquered all of the cities.

                    In my opinion.. it is an abuse of the game mechanics.

                    Boo ... Hiss ... @ RP

                    *** Personal opinion only ***

                    {edit - But not an illegal move BTW}
                    It should be noted that there exist historical precedents for this type of thing in the medieval and even Rennaisance world... cities and provinces being ceded to other powers for their protection. In Middle Age Europe, for instance, the solidified "nation-state" did not yet exist and changing patterns of fealty of various local barons and other nobility, especially inside the states of the Holy Roman Empire, was not entirely uncommon. Especially during the wars of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation in the 16th Century and early 17th Century, some cities switched fealty multiple times and not just due to siege.

                    It wouldn't even be unrealistic to argue that the local nobles might declare fealty to another state if the one they currently owe fealty to cannot protect them and does not mind the change of allegiance given this fact.

                    There are also examples from Chinese history, etc.
                    Long-time poster on Apolyton and WePlayCiv
                    Consul of Apolyton from the 1st Civ3 Inter-Site Democracy Game (ISDG)
                    7th President of Apolyton in the 1st Civ3 Democracy Game

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      As long as we're spouting personal opinion here:

                      I congratulate RP on making a brilliant move. Once again they are showing that they are the unquestioned king of diplomacy and international puppeteering in this game
                      One who has a surplus of the unorthodox shall attain surpassing victories. - Sun Pin
                      You're wierd. - Krill

                      An UnOrthOdOx Hobby

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
                        As long as we're spouting personal opinion here:

                        I congratulate RP on making a brilliant move. Once again they are showing that they are the unquestioned king of diplomacy and international puppeteering in this game
                        Are you calling GS a "puppet"? Are more appropriately, saying that Roleplay views GS as their puppet?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The way the whole thing was written its hard to argue otherwise.

                          They gave cities for Tech and gold. However, to others it appears that GS has fully supported RP and is now fighting against them as well. Logic would seem to dictate for those teams to immediately attack GS, since they now appear enemies as well, thus ensuring GS DOES enter MILITARILY into the war without RP having to acutally persuade GS to commit Militarily, since we all know GS will not stand for their cities to be violated.

                          It was a smart move. Took advantage of GS's code of honor, the attitudes of the teams they are facing, and the outward APPEARANCE of what was going on, despite what the deal actually entailed.


                          But again, this is just my opinion.
                          One who has a surplus of the unorthodox shall attain surpassing victories. - Sun Pin
                          You're wierd. - Krill

                          An UnOrthOdOx Hobby

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
                            As long as we're spouting personal opinion here:

                            I congratulate RP on making a brilliant move. Once again they are showing that they are the unquestioned king of diplomacy and international puppeteering in this game
                            Boo ... Hiss @ Unorthodox

                            "No Comment"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              GS = "Gathered Stuffing" a favorite puppet of the Roleplay Puppeteering Carnival.

                              Comment

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