Citystates Demogame revamp discussions.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

If we started the Citystates and colonies on an island we could do the $MiniGame with this game also.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

If we can talk Octavian X and Kloreep to each take one of the two remaining civs we could get started and allow new people to join the Citystate that best suits them.

[FrustratedPoet]

[Kloreep]

The problem with me leading a citystate is that I will be gone for a while in about 3 weeks; after that, school starts up again and I don't know how much time I'll have for more DGs.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Maybe someone else will join by then and they can take over the position. Another Consul (from one of the other Citystates) could take over for awhile, since the Citystates are supposed to be worked in unison. We could even make up a roleplay element that the two Citystates joined for a period under a union between the leading houses of the two cities in question.

[HarryH]

Are there any other restrictions put on the barbarians other than can not trade techs with other barbarians and can not trade maps outside the game? The tech part will probably be the biggest disadvantage for the barbarians. It will ensure that the citystates are the tech leaders. With the extra settlers to start with the city states will also have the initial commerce and production advantage. Since the citystate cities can get large early without happiness problems they should be able to build the wonders much quicker than the barbarians can. The barbs will need GLs to get any wonders. Sounds like the barbs will have their work cut out for them.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

That's kinda the point HarryH. The Democracy game is all about the Citystates, the barbarians are just human AI to provide a better opponent that the game AI would.

[FrustratedPoet]

But the idea is that the CityStates work towards a peaceful victory, yes? Or does anything go?

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
But the idea is that the CityStates work towards a peaceful victory, yes? Or does anything go?

I was of the opinion that anything goes.

Only Barbarians will be able to build Settlers, each of the four Citystates starts with three settlers, but will be able to build a forum that allows city size three and generates happy faces so that the Citystates should be able to support a fairly large size state.

The Citystates share a forum and know of each other's existence and are free to work together or in competition. But the idea is that each Citystate is trying to outdo the other Citystates.

[ManicStarSeed]

Again, I can do the mod. I started with one the first time around and can continue to do so. I will wait however; until we have the rules defined a little better...

Mss

[HarryH]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
That's kinda the point HarryH. The Democracy game is all about the Citystates, the barbarians are just human AI to provide a better opponent that the game AI would.

I understand that, but if you strangle the human AI too much it will not provide a competitive opponent to make the citystates work for a victory.

Have you noticed what happens when you extract all the money from the AI? It severly reduces their trading ability. The civs that are in the tech lead will continue to trade with each other but the lagards will have nothing to trade with so they get further behind in tech. At several points in the ancient age there are a limited number of techs that can be researched. With the research advantage the citystates have from the start they will get into those techs first. Once they have all the first tier techs from the barbs the barbs will not have much to trade. The citystates will continue to advance in tech and leave the barbs behind. The citystates will be the leaders and trade with each other so they only have to do about a quarter of the techs. The barbs will get left behind and will need to research nearly every tech for themselves. Sounds like some games I have played where I use my cavalry to stomp on any tech leaders. Once that is done, by the time I get tanks the laggard AI civs are building musketmen for defense.

Will the citystates be able to combat each other too or will all the pressure be on the barbs?

It sounds like once the initial trading of starting techs and goody huts are gone, the most valuable assest the barbs will have is new cities. Cities the citystates deparately need. Although very valuable, losing too many cities via conquest or trading will negatively affect the barbs ability to compete.

You want the human AI to be a better opponent than the game AI but at least the game AI can trade techs with each other, and at higher difficulty levels the AI gets a research/production advantage that the barbs will not have. This may turn out to be a serious handicap for the barbs (or it may not turn out as I think it will). You might want to consider other things instead.

Ideas:

Remove the UU from the barbs and give them the regular unit instead. Why should a barb civ have a UU with extra abilities or have a golden age?

Give the citystate civs an extra trait, or remove traits from the barbs.

Give the citystate civs extra UUs (maybe one per age). The downside of this one is that it diminishes the UU differences between the citystates themselves (if there is much combat between the citystates).

Q: Will barbs be allowed to cooperate with each other (e.g., alliances, etc.) against the citystates? against each other?

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed
Again, I can do the mod. I started with one the first time around and can continue to do so. I will wait however; until we have the rules defined a little better...

Mss

I already have the mod made, but we could use someone to generate and tweak the map so that we don't see it.

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by HarryH
Ideas:

Remove the UU from the barbs and give them the regular unit instead. Why should a barb civ have a UU with extra abilities or have a golden age?

Give the citystate civs an extra trait, or remove traits from the barbs.

Give the citystate civs extra UUs (maybe one per age). The downside of this one is that it diminishes the UU differences between the citystates themselves (if there is much combat between the citystates).

You wrote a nice long post detailing some good reasons why the Barbs might be far too weak to make this idea viable and then suggested three ways to make the City States much stronger? I'm confused....

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

The Barbarians are called that because they are not the Citystates. Just like Rome called anyone not Roman "barbarian" it doesn't mean their the computer barbarians.

I don't see any need to mess with the UUs or giving extra traits to the Citystates, they have almost every one when you look at the four different ones.

[redstar1]

Yeah, I think it will be very interesting just as it is, much like the days of Rome as GhengisFarb suggested....