Public Announcement from Gathering Storm

[BigFree]

Given the same token I can not presume to know what your entire opinon about that thread/chat was. You have your feelings about what was meant as does Togas. I'm only offering an outside look into it. To me, it sounded more like a personal matter, bewtween you two, but that's only my opinion. Only Togas can tell you differently; and only you can judge that as to how it makes you feel from your own POV.

I had hoped, frankly, that we would be beyond this by now. We are all on Team Apolyton, and that should be #1.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I think you are looking past some things, BigFree. Have another look at that thread. I will not presume to speak for all members of GS, but I know how I view Togas' words there, and in a chat afterward.

Yes, he has refined it to 'some members' of GS. That is not how it started, from my POV.

Whatever frictions you and Togas may have had in the past, this is not the thread to continue them nor are they an indication of team policy for one simple reason: it happened in a thread totally foreign to the current demo game.

I can't believe months after the ashes are still flying around. Grow up people.

[Dominae]

I've become a rather casual participant in this game over the past few months, only bothering to check in with the Gathering Storm forum periodically, and this forum once in a blue moon. So I think I can provide an "outsider's perspective".

I'm surprised at how emotional people get with this game. Here are my disinterested thoughts:

1. This particular thread was in bad form. It goes without saying that giving Vox Iron to fight us will make us mad; saying so explicity is not required. What happens when you make something like that explicit is that people start thinking there's another message, most probably something along the lines of: "Gathering Storm is threatening us". I doubt that was Nathan's intention, but some more caution should have been exercised to ensure things were not taken the wrong way. What is intented to be said and what is conveyed are often two completely different things.

2. The very nature of this thread demonstrates a surprising obliviousness to the world diplomatic situation (as I understand it, admittedly imperfectly). Just a few turns ago everyone and their uncle had bad feelings toward Gathering Storm because of the whole Vox affair. Now we're "requesting" that no one give Vox Iron, which is, after all, "for your own good, since you could be attacked with your own Pikemen and Knights". That's pretty arrogant, IMO. What Gathering Storm should really be doing is praying the other teams will not give Vox Iron, and making steps to ensure this becomes a reality.

3. This is Civ3, and one of the best ways to fight your neighbor is to get another neighbor to fight for you. Thus, I see nothing reprehensible in any other team offering Iron to Vox. In fact, I would expect it. It is simply not right for Gathering Storm to expect that other teams will not give Vox Iron, in order to generate good will. Gathering Storm needs to suck up to the other teams, and not the other way around (even if Gathering Storm thinks they've done nothing wrong...this is definitely a pride issue!).

4. I'm surprised Gathering Storm has such little foreign affairs coherence. In fact, I'm wondering why our "public announcements" are such free-for-alls.

5. Now that I've knocked Gathering Storm, I'll knock the other teams too. My message for everyone else: chill. The members of Gathering Storm are good guys that just want to win this game. There is no reason to get angry at them for how they play. If Gathering Storm makes bad diplomatic decisions, just act in consequence. This is not a course in politics, diplomacy and morality here, although it may well feel like one sometimes; it is a game, with goals to win and have fun. Getting on Gathering Storm's back because they're arrogant a-holes is a waste of time. Make friends where you can, and leave everyone else alone (or, kick their butts in-game, but nothing more).

6. If any of the past few comments were "propaganda", all I have to say is that you're walking a thin line here: although you may achieve the desired effect (i.e. put you into a better diplomatic situation), you'll surely not make any friends along the way. Just look at how heated Vox and Gathering Storm were over our respective public war announcements/reports.


Edit: In no way do I think any Gathering Storm member is an "arrogant a-hole". For the most part, I think we've played the game very well, diplomacy included. In other words, I think Gathering Storm is a top-notch, honorable and mostly misunderstood team. Of course, I'll never convince any of you outsiders the truth of this...(I suppose you could all just ask Trip!).


Dominae

[BigFree]

Originally posted by Dominae

5. Now that I've knocked Gathering Storm, I'll knock the other teams too.

That line literally knocked me to the floor laughing!

I can only give you a for your whole post Dom.

Now, lets try to have some fun or kick some donkey, whichever you prefer!

[Master Zen]

Very well put Dominae

I for one welcome the trash talking as long as it is good fun (we all need laughs and both Vox and GS provided them in those threads). However this thread has gone a bit past that thin line called tact.

What pisses me off personally is why people are starting to bring in past personal issues into this. It is totally deplorable and makes me wonder preciesely if we are taking this a bit too seriously sometimes when it is just a game.

We may criticize, yes, but when things start getting personal it all goes down the drain. As a demo gamer I may criticize the way GS handled this affair, but it is no fair to start throwing **** at individual players especially since many of us are teammates in the ISDG or are people we cross paths with in other forums. I for one, whatever my impressions of GS as a team and their diplomacy, are quite fond of and admire many of their players.

So, let's stop getting personal and stop taking comments as "official". If people start taking what I say in these types of threads as the "official" position of GoW, then I'll just simply shut up. The same, I believe, should also apply to the other teams.

[Togas]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I think you are looking past some things, BigFree. Have another look at that thread. I will not presume to speak for all members of GS, but I know how I view Togas' words there, and in a chat afterward.

Yes, he has refined it to 'some members' of GS. That is not how it started, from my POV.

My GOD does it ever end? I suppose this is what I deserve for having the gaul to publicly call into question the motives of NYE and whoever he was speaking for, which I mistakenly thought was his whole team. I posted my mistake and apology when I learned that I was indeed wrong.

Maybe this will fix it: NYE -- you are right and I am wrong. You are smart and I am dumb. I am secretly ordering my Roleplay goons to attack your team because I have some irrational vengence against you all which relates to my own paranoia and need for institutionalization/medication.

Feel any better? No? Perhaps we should knock off this personal grudge between us and get back to business. You know as well as I do that using "bad feelings" as an excuse for foreign policy is retarded. I know GS is too smart to do that and I know that my people are too smart to let me do that. Let's quit pretending that anyone with half a brain might think so.

I was serious about the olive branch. I don't hate DeepO and I don't hate GS. I don't have some secret plot to destroy GS, I just want my team to do well and to be succesful in this game, and if that means being at peace and cooperating with GS I have no problem with that.

If GS wants to talk to us, please contact us via PM BigFree or GodKing. I'd be happy to see our teams grow past these accusations and suspicions. I know my team would be releaved as well. No one wants a flame war, especially since we haven't done anything to each other to warrant such bad feelings.

--Togas

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Togas
I am frustrated beyond words at where this thread has gone. I am angry because my own personal and past issues with the attitude of VERY FEW of the Gathering Storm members somehow grew into a mass loathing by GS for my team. My team had nothing to do with my opinions, and I am tired of seeing them slandered or seeing gross assumptions being made about the nation of Spain and our policies, based solely on my Out of Game beef.

You brought it up, Togas, long before I posted in this thread. You can't seem to let it go.

But, I am a villain for having an opinion of my own and stating it after you have opened the door. I see. If I am inaccurate, what does it matter? The response I receive seems to put some doubt as to my being mistaken. There seem to be a few people determined to receive these words with hostility. So be it.

[nbarclay]

I'd really appreciate it if this unpleasantness between NYE and Togas would disappear. Too much heat is being generated, and almost no light. I don't think it's good for either team, or for the game or community in general.

[Thud]

Really, Trip, I was wondering. I had no idea there was any "Luxian Aggression". I was rooting for your team. I suppose I've been a little out of the loop.

Now that I've knocked Gathering Storm, I'll knock the other teams too. My message for everyone else: chill. The members of Gathering Storm are good guys that just want to win this game. There is no reason to get angry at them for how they play. If Gathering Storm makes bad diplomatic decisions, just act in consequence. This is not a course in politics, diplomacy and morality here, although it may well feel like one sometimes; it is a game, with goals to win and have fun.

You mean I don't get a degree? Togas, I hope you'll accept my resignation, this has obviously been a grand waste of time

[UnOrthOdOx]

The members of Gathering Storm are good guys that just want to win this game. There is no reason to get angry at them for how they play. If Gathering Storm makes bad diplomatic decisions, just act in consequence. This is not a course in politics, diplomacy and morality here, although it may well feel like one sometimes; it is a game, with goals to win and have fun.

Perhaps this is where the original misunderstanding has started from. From what I know of several of the folks here, the politics IS what they find fun, and therefore where they choose to pay more attention in the game.

[Beta]

Dominae - great post. And right on the mark.

OK folks. Game on!

(maybe someone should close this thread.)

(and GS, next time you want to do a public announcement we can loan you a consultant or two to help you out. This is said in all jest, just to be clear.)

[mrmitchell]

I think people are taking the game too seriously. Remember when this was just practice for the ISDG? Well, I think everyone's forgotten that, and it's obvious--we're backstabbing, we're bringing in old personal disputes...is this how the game was supposed to be? NO! We need to loosen up a little, and realize we're supposed to be bonding and/or learning for the ISDG, not "playing to win," especially not if this is the result. No disgrace will fall upon anyone if they lose the game, and we need to play the game for fun, not for some all-powerful urge to win.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx

Perhaps this is where the original misunderstanding has started from. From what I know of several of the folks here, the politics IS what they find fun, and therefore where they choose to pay more attention in the game.

If it weren't for the politics, i'd be out of a job here and in the ISDG...

[Harovan]

Originally posted by BetaHound
(and GS, next time you want to do a public announcement we can loan you a consultant or two to help you out. This is said in all jest, just to be clear.)

Next time you want to ambush your neighbors, we can loan you a general.

This is said in all jest, just to be clear.

[Hot Mustard]

I'm hoping that one outcome from this thread will be similar to what happened between RP and GoW in the early ancient age...

After some heated confrontations where members from both sides got things off their chest and beat their chests a little, we learned each others' diplomatic style, everyone calmed down, and we started getting deals done.

Let's see if we can turn this:

Into this: