Why guerrila?

[planetfall]

Yes, both would be unbalancing.

1st choice would be stealth.
2nd choice would be 1 extra movement and all terrain as grass.

What- no PTW yet? ;-)

If stealth works it would be the same as privateer and stealth aircraft. Question is if Firaxis build that sensing capability into PTW or not. Naturally if you give guerrila stealth, you need to give some units ability to see. In editor "stealth" is actually invisible.

Thus something like this would work:

invisible-- guerrila

see invisible-- inf, mechs, tanks, MA and maybe helicopters.

This might encourage AI to build guerrilas or to upgrade old units into units that could see guerrilas.

This would be an interesting concept to play test. An invisible land unit to match the sea and air invisible units. Huh, interesting. Playable?? unknown. Any play test volunteers?

-- PF

[Mahdimael]

I haven't really played too much with guerrilas, but they seem to be just a way to keep swordsmen/med. inf from running around during the modern era.

Cost should probably be less than normal infantry, but not excessively so

[CiverDan]

Allow guerrilas move 2 all as roads. This gives them at least some reason for someone to actually build them (i.e. a unit which can pillage and run.) Right now they are just cannon fodder consisting of upgraded swords. BTW, does anyone actually build either longbow, medievel infantry, or guerrilas, for any reason other than ur missing a resource.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by CiverDan
BTW, does anyone actually build either longbow, medievel infantry, or guerrilas, for any reason other than ur missing a resource.

I don't build guerrilas as with Firaxis preferences the cost is the same as infantry and I would have to give up 4 defensive strength.

I do build longbow and med inf.

Longbow-- was a cool offensive unit prior to med inf availability. Cheap, cheap. Upgrade from archer. Usually have 5-10 in a game. Why? Excellent cost/benefit ratio versus Musketmen--Knights--Cavalry.

Cost == 40. Attacks with 4 power.
Musketman cost = 60, defense is 4.
Knight cost = 60, defense is 3!!!
Cavalry cost = 80, defense is 3!!!

It is fun to use longbow that costs 40 take out a cavalry unit that costs AI 2x as much. Besides by using a "weaker unit" it seems like higher probability of elite or GL chances.

Med Inf-- same reason, but if not upgrading from archer and iron is available.

-- PF

[ruby_maser]

a cool idea that may help balance them in certain situations would be to have them be invisible but only in the jungles, and I would go so far as to make them invisible even in the jungles of enemy territory until you are right beside them.

If you think that is too much, maybe you could say only unroaded jungle tiles. I had initially hoped that they wouldn't have had nationality in the game so that they could have been built and sent out to wreak havoc but anyway...

In the dense jungles, they would be perfect at blending in and working in that harsh terrain. I think this would create an added late game challenge for civs trying to chop themselves out of the jungle but also having to worry about protecting their workers.

This feature could be very handy on warm, wet worlds. I can just see a poor unit wandering right into a pack of 8-10 guerillas on ambush patrol

[Jaybe]

6/6/2, all terrain as roads (though all terrain as grassland would be better); or

6/6/1 all terrain as roads:
would keep them to rough terrain and would make them vulnerable in roaded, keeping them as a niche unit.

[Bambul]

I would just make them upgrade to infantry. I thought the aim of Guerillas was to have an upgrade path from Med Infantry to (eventually) Mech Inf. But instead of sending it through riflemen you would make a unit between them and infantry that was a little weaker than infantry but would allow you (or the AI) to build it if you have no rubber resource.

At most I may up its ADM to 6.8.2 if I think it is underpowered, but I see it more as a last resort unit if a city can't get access to rubber and you want a unit with the defence of riflemen but the offence of cavalry/infantry.

Just as in middle ages I only build longbowmen if I can't build knights, in industrial ages I will only build guerillas if I can't build infantry (then if they upgrade they do so for free!)

[aahz_capone]

thnx for changing the poll!

I like having them with that extra movement. Now would free upkeep be historically correct? (Yes, I'm one of THOSE civ players... )

[Trifna]

Let them HIDE.... It's the whole point of a guerilla!

[And stuff the gorilla with bananas as a mascot neer your computer]

[ruby_maser]

yeah, the poll should be revised so they can be made invisible only in the jungle.

When they are in the jungle, the only way you should be able to spot them is by moving right next to them. Instead of giving them 2 movements, I think they should be able to sit in "ambush", then if something accidentally comes next to them, they can attack and disengage. They trade punches with the enemy for a percentage of their status (say 2 for normal, 3 for veteran, and 4 for elite) and then disengage regardless of whether they are winning or losing. Guerilla warfare is not necessarily about killing an enemy. However, I think a large enough force of guerillas stationed in ambush could take out an enemy unit by each making small strikes and then disengaging and getting the choice of still moving after their initial attack so they can disappear back into the jungle.

[planetfall]

Ruby,

Remember we are just talking about editor changes not game reprogramming. Invisible only in jungle is not an editor option. Furthermore, if invisible in jungle why not invisible in mountains and flood plains? These terrains also offer high volume of hiding places. If you read Dune, even deserts can be hiding places for determined guerrillas.

The disengage option is an interesting concept. It may only be available to units with more than one movement. If can make guerilla invisible, no need to make movement 2, unless really want to increase number of guerillas.

The other new interesting edit change was to have inf as upgrade from guerilla. With all these changes may want to decrease guerilla to 5.6.1|2.

--PF

[ruby_maser]

Originally posted by planetfall
Remember we are just talking about editor changes not game reprogramming. Invisible only in jungle is not an editor option. Furthermore, if invisible in jungle why not invisible in mountains and flood plains? These terrains also offer high volume of hiding places. If you read Dune, even deserts can be hiding places for determined guerrillas.
--PF

Yeah, I know, I know. Can't reprogram but I can't help but wish. But in regards to invisibility (in this dream concept) and if their was an "ambush" option for this unit to be put on, then any terrain would be fine as long as they were set in that mode.

But I think for sure guerillas can be set to have no nationality in the editor. I think you should be able to produce them and use them like privateers.

[planetfall]

Ruby,

Well try at game with at least hidden nationality and let us know of your experiences:

1-- where the guerilla units effective for you,

2-- how did the AI use guerilla units against you.

One game I made both subs hidden nationality. Wow, instead of battleships I had 40-50 AI subs attacking everything that floated. Would be interesting to see what mischief the AI could make with hidden nationlity for land units.

== PF

[player1]

Just one thing to say:

If you are planning to give them treat all tiles as roads ability DO NOT, and I repeat DO NOT give them 2 movement point.

Otherwise you'll get a very powerfull Cavalry unit (6 tile movements in enemy territory)

Treat all tiles as roads ability with movement of 1 is on the other hand OK.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by player1
Just one thing to say:

If you are planning to give them treat all tiles as roads ability DO NOT, and I repeat DO NOT give them 2 movement point.

Otherwise you'll get a very powerfull Cavalry unit (6 tile movements in enemy territory)

Treat all tiles as roads ability with movement of 1 is on the other hand OK.

Thanks for clarifying this, especially for those who only look at the poll and not the comments. We don't want 2 movement AND all terrain as road.

What most want to do is
A) give guerrila's movement of 2 if not invisible,
B) movement of 1 if invisible flag set, and
C) not give them the ability to move 3 tiles in a turn.

If increasing trait "invisible" or movement, may actually want to decrease offense by 1 so unit is not too powerful.

== PF