Here we go again......

[Chemical Ollie]

I really have a hard time to understand why expensive computer software should not work perfectly out of the box. There no valid reason why I as a consumer should accept a product that is only semi-finished. Is there any other business where such flaws would be accepted?

Books: - OK, pages 102, 157 and 239 are missing, but you can download them from the publishers web site...

DVD movies: - Oops, the sound in scene 12 is not in sync with the speach. Please download a patch from our web to create a new copy on your own dvd burner...

Beverages: Eeeh, 2 cans in this sixpack has no CO2. Just find out which and throw them away...

[Minuteman]

LOL! It's nice to see that these fora haven't changed one bit in the months I've been away. Even the most innocuous threads here never fail to open a can of worms somewhere along the way.

Look, after hanging around these boards for months after Civ3 was first released last year, I learned that Firaxis was essentially in a no-win situation from the start. From the very beginning there were incessant cries about the lack of MP in Civ3, which was understandable. That coupled with the plethora of bugs that 1.07f contained amounted to a lot of intense conversations here, along with a fair amount of mud slinging, I might add ( I was branded a "Fanboy", btw )

However, as the months elapsed, Firaxis did address as many of those issues as they could, which is all anyone can realistically expect a software company to do. The end result was that there were still people who were dissatisfied with their efforts.

Now, after only a year since the initial launch of Civ3, Firaxis has attempted to address the last principal complaint regarding this franchise, the lack of MP. And guess what?...there are some people who are dissatisfied with the product. That's a situation that I don't expect to change much as Firaxis proceeds to patch this game over the next few months.

The bottom line here is that if you're looking for perfection, someone to part the Red Sea for you, as it were, don't look towards the software industry. You'll get your heart broken every time. As long as Firaxis continues to demonstrate a willingness to continually improve this product, I'm satisfied. Aside from that, what more can be done?

**Jumps off his trusty soapbox and waits to be flamed**

[Minuteman]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
I take it you are not the minuteman I trounced in MP the other day then . trounced is too strong a word, got lucky at first and the lag/jumpyness did the rest.

hehe...Nope, that wasn't me. But you'll have your chance soon enough.

The end result will probably be the same, since I'm nothing without a good trainer in my arsenal.

[Akka]

Originally posted by cyclotron7


Yes, you are indeed too naive if you still expected this after Civ3.

Well, I was not naive ENOUGH to buy it blindly, hopefully
Borrowed it to a friend, tried it, was disgusted.
And considering how he was disgusted to, I think I'll keep his copy for a LONG time. He seems to not even remember he got this game

[Akka]

Now, after only a year since the initial launch of Civ3, Firaxis has attempted to address the last principal complaint regarding this franchise, the lack of MP. And guess what?...there are some people who are dissatisfied with the product. That's a situation that I don't expect to change much as Firaxis proceeds to patch this game over the next few months.

Well...
Perhaps you're not aware of it, but it happens that they tried to "adress the last principal complaint" buy RELEASING an add-on that we have to PAY for it. And that is STILL buggy as hell, and which contents are hardly worth of the 30 $ it's priced.

So OF COURSE there will be complaints

[Minuteman]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil


Well...
Perhaps you're not aware of it, but it happens that they tried to "adress the last principal complaint" buy RELEASING an add-on that we have to PAY for it.

No, I wasn't aware of that. I live at the bottom of an old well and news only trickles down to me once a century.

Originally posted by Akka le Vil
So OF COURSE there will be complaints

I happen to agree with you. If the product needs improvement, then Firaxis, at least in principle, owes its paying customers the necessary improvements in the form of an effective patch.

However, my point was that, based on their track record, Firaxis will implement these improvements as soon as they can. That bit of knowledge, of course, shouldn't make people who are currently having problems feel any better. But if a company is willing to stand by their product and improve it, that's all anyone can realistically expect.

Have you ever purchased a game or software title in which the company that produces it doesn't deign to patch and improve the product? I have, and it sucks! Even if Firaxis wanted to take this approach with Civ3, we won't let them. We'll nag them until we get what we want!

[Dinner]

Well Minuteman, I will take another look at PtW when Firaxis does release a patch that improves the MP proformence. Until then I'm off to the off topic boards. Ta-ta everyone.

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by Olaf HÃ¥rfagre
I really have a hard time to understand why expensive computer software should not work perfectly out of the box.

A $30 dollar piece of software hardly falls into the expensive range. At work I regularly have to buy $20,000 pieces of software to develop even more expensive software. $30 is trivial.

BTW, I have had books that were missing pages. The publisher pretty much told me "TS, want a different book, instead?"

[Demerzel]

Originally posted by WarpStorm

Originally posted by Olaf HÃ¥rfagre
I really have a hard time to understand why expensive computer software should not work perfectly out of the box.

A $30 dollar piece of software hardly falls into the expensive range. At work I regularly have to buy $20,000 pieces of software to develop even more expensive software. $30 is trivial.

BTW, I have had books that were missing pages. The publisher pretty much told me "TS, want a different book, instead?"

Hmm, in England you either return the book to where you bought it from and get a replacement, or you can go via the publishers and get the same deal. My sister once got a dictionary missing some pages, rang the publishers I believe and got a new one whilst keeping the original.

If effectively being told to stick it is the American way, I'm damn glad I live here in England.

regarding the software issue. it's six of one and half-dozen of the other.

it's good that some developers do patch up issues after release. some don't even do that annoyingly after releasing buggy code.

however, releasing the unfinished/buggy software in the first place is pretty dodgy.

somethings won't change though

[WarpStorm]

I am pretty sure that Firaxis wouldn't have shipped it if not for contractual obligations with their publisher.

[vmxa1]

Well since we have about 300 million, I am glad you live there too. I mean, really what does the return policy have to do with the quaility of life? In any event, the return policy is not universal, different publishers and book stores have their own policies.

[Demerzel]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Well since we have about 300 million, I am glad you live there too. I mean, really what does the return policy have to do with the quaility of life? In any event, the return policy is not universal, different publishers and book stores have their own policies.

heheh a bit touchy aren't we? all I did was compare how things seemingly differ between the states and here in england, and point out that here in england we seem to have a better deal with more politely talking customer service.

If you take that as a deadly insult, I'm damn glad too I don't live in America where you might shoot me for the crime ( note to anyone else I'm using argument by absurdity for the last sentence and not being serious before you decide to flame me ).

Warpstorm: I'm sure that is the case but the way the trend is going it's a shame that only the very biggest can afford to say "it'll be out when it's done". Fact of life but regrettable nonetheless.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil
Well, I was not naive ENOUGH to buy it blindly, hopefully
Borrowed it to a friend, tried it, was disgusted.
And considering how he was disgusted to, I think I'll keep his copy for a LONG time. He seems to not even remember he got this game

Wait, you borrowed Civ3 or PTW?

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Olaf HÃ¥rfagre
I really have a hard time to understand why expensive computer software should not work perfectly out of the box. There no valid reason why I as a consumer should accept a product that is only semi-finished. Is there any other business where such flaws would be accepted?

Books: - OK, pages 102, 157 and 239 are missing, but you can download them from the publishers web site...

DVD movies: - Oops, the sound in scene 12 is not in sync with the speach. Please download a patch from our web to create a new copy on your own dvd burner...

Beverages: Eeeh, 2 cans in this sixpack has no CO2. Just find out which and throw them away...

Let's put it this way. A novel has maybe 50,000 words (and lots of typos and grammatical errors, I might add). A game has anywhere from several hundred thousand (for a SMALL game) to a couple MILLION *lines* of code. Not words, LINES. A game as complex as Civ3 probably has ~5 million or more lines of code, and around 10 or 15 million words, at least. Plus, with code, a typo or grammatical error will cause a bug, UNLIKE with a book, where it may not even be noticed.

Quite frankly, it is literally impossible to ship a bug-free game. That doesn't excuse huge bugs like if the game crashed 100% of the time halfway through, but people really need to realize that it is simply impossible to be 'perfectly stable' with a computer game.

[Akka]

Originally posted by cyclotron7


Wait, you borrowed Civ3 or PTW?

I borrowed PTW.
I got Civ3 last year, and that's precisely what made me acting more cautiously this time