next expansion pack - what civs do you want?

[Serotonin]

The only time they're mentioned in history is when they were "blitzkrieged" by germany... before that they were part of the germans... and after that they were plauged with too many problems to be a "somebody"..

Originally posted by monkspider



Nope, I'm a Kansan.
Poland has been a prominent world power at several times in world history. There's no way you can classify them with "civs" like the Canadians or Brazillians.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Traelin


The Byzantine capital should be Byzantium, not Constantinople. Yes I know it's the same city, but the name is important.

Also, there's no way the Dutch should be Exp./Scientific. They HAVE to be Commercial, it's what they were known for. Their economy kicked arse back in the day.

Hey, I prefer Constantinople myself, but to each his own.
At least I'll take Byzantium over Istanbul any day.

And of course, you're right in regards to the Dutch being Commercial. But I just had to fit in Scientific somewhere, and there are already so many commercial civs in that list. Maybe Firaxis can give Dutch commercial and one of the other civs can arbitrarily given scientific.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Serotonin
The only time they're mentioned in history is when they were "blitzkrieged" by germany... before that they were part of the germans... and after that they were plauged with too many problems to be a "somebody"..

You gotta me kidding be Serotonin! I suppose it's not uncommon to be ignorant of Polish history. Poland-Lithuania was the greatest superpowers of Europe for quite a while. I'm not really a Polish conniseur but I'm told they have had some interesting inventions and so forth too. Poland has done much more than charged it's cavalry into German panzers.
Play Europa Universalis some day and you'll see what I mean.

BTW, Poland was great power when Germany was just a bunch of tiny, fueding principalities. So I'm not sure what you meant with the "before that they were part of the Germans" comment.

[Emma]

i don't really think brazil or canada should be in (next people will be wanting pakistan, Luxumburg, belgium, monaco and lichtenstein), but portugal, poland (and Ankh Morpork) should be in .
i don't think italy would be very good. they weren't really one nation, just like germany, it was split up into a few countries.
no honest, their are so many civs who deserve to be in the game, but if they don't exist anymore (Burma for example), or if not enough people in that land buy the game, i don't think they'll make it to next xp.

.

[-proletarian-]

Originally posted by monkspider



Nope, I'm a Kansan.
Poland has been a prominent world power at several times in world history. There's no way you can classify them with "civs" like the Canadians or Brazillians.

Yup, I know their history (albeit in a pretty rudimentary way, but still.....) and know that for a while they were a quite a big power within Europe. My feelings on them being a possible expansion civ are thus;

1) There are already enough European civs in this game

2) Because of that, Firaxis should only include the greatest European civs to have ever been. They have already done that. Poland was never as powerful as France, germany, Rome, Spain, or Britain during their respective "golden ages".

3) Geez, no more European civs, please, there is still a whole empty continent (south america) and one that could house another civ or two (africa).

[monkspider]

Well I certainly can't argue your point about their being too many Euro civs. in fact, with PTW, there are *way* too many Euro civs. I really don't want to see the Dutch, Portugese AND Poles in the next XP. Given the huge number of Euros they added in PTW it's almost essential they only have one or two for game balance reasons. And that said, I think I would probably prefer the Dutch and Portugese out of the three.My point was simply that you shouldn't dismiss the Poles as a trite little civ like Brazil or Canada.

[bigvic]

Originally posted by -proletarian-
Honestly, I tried to complete your poll, but I just couldn't. There are only one or two civs missing now that PTW is coming out in my opinion, namely the Inca (we need a civ in south america, no?) and another one to fill out west africa.

I mean, really, can Poland, Canada, Brazil etc. really be considered as civilizations? To me they are modern nation-states, nothing more. Yes, some would also say this about Germany, England etc., but they have their roots going back a thousand years or more, and have both played a huge part in world history since then, as well as fighting some of history's most devestating wars.

To be honest, I could live without any new civs after PTW comes out. To me, the biggest things missing now are farms and more military units. That's it.

Just my two cents.....

yeah,same could really be said for americans(!)
i kind of started running out of options there - wish i had remembered the byzantines, though i kind of have the same reservations about them as the italians. they really should, i think, have included cities like venice, milan, etc. under rome, and some byzantine specific cities under greek

i suppose the next incarnation of civ might include some provision for morphing of civs, arising of new civs, etc, when we all have supercomputers that will be able to handle it all.

mine were hebrews, incas, dutch, portuguese, west african, polynesian, some kind of southeast asian, and, of course bigvicites

[monkspider]

Well I used to think the Roman and Greeks represented the Byzantines quite well. But the more I studied them, the more truly unique I realize they were. Certainly if we can have the Celts and the French, and the Babylonians and the Arabs, we can have the Byzantines too.
They are a shoe-in for the next XP since they are famous, they were one of the world's great powers for a long time, and they are marketable. That is, the average PC game buyer is at least somewhat famillar with them. Plus they are the only civ left that can represent the mediterranean.
I would say the Dutch, Hebrews and Inca are shoe-ins too. But perhaps the Dutch not quite to the degree of absolute certainity that the other three are. But they are still pretty reasonably a shoe-in.

[aahz_capone]

It's crap that central/south america doesn't get so as represented in civ. The Aztecs are strictly not enough and I think to do just to this continent that Incas and Mayans should be represneted.

As for the rest it is insulting to all of european culture that the dutch aren't in. They should be comercial dn sci or exp, but definately commercial. The Ship of the Line UU is cool, as I saw in a dutch mod long ago, there was the V.O.C. galleon, basically a transport that can move one square farther. Makes total sence as the dutch. There is no way they are "not a shoe in" considering their impact (for beter or worse) in the east and west indies. Hell, the ducth invented the idea of marines (and promptly sold it to britain, the greedy bastards!).

[Zero]

Originally posted by Traelin


The Dutch have a very legitimate reason to be in the game. I'm surprised they're not already.

well i didnt mean to downplay all other civs. As you can see from my reason1 for incas, but having more civs then what we have now will just be overdoing it (whether dutch was laready in or not).

[bigvic]

ok, byzantine issue aside (and, monkspider, your persistant insistance is beginning to turn me to your opinion), so far for the next 7, the public wants.......lets see......
incas
hebrews
mayas
dutch
portuguese
polynesians
poles

hmmm.......ok, the way i see it, we have to make way for another african civ, should make way for anotherr asian civ, though polynesians could fill that role......

my suggestions are to throw out mayans and keep incas, insert west africans (which i will refer to as maghreb now, though this could be any of 3-4 of a succesion of powerful states, songhai, mali, etc.)and, you know? i think, despite the eurocentrism of it all, would keep it as is. so....

inca, dutch, portuguese, poles, hebrews, maghrebi, polynesians

UU's?
inca - sun warrior? sounds like something i've read about, though i think they were called sun knights and i suggest a swordsman type, 3-2-2 (really looking at game balance issues here)
dutch - statholder militia? like pikemen but 2-3-1? or fluyt? improved galleon?
portuguese - some kind of souped up caravel?
maghreb - some kind of improved horseman, maybe 2-2-2?
poles - lancers, what, super cav that does not require saltpeter?
hebrews - either zealots (archers, 2-1-2) or armored infantry (mech infantry with blitz)
polynesians - outriggers - galleys with extra movement

traits?
incas - industrious/religious
dutch commercial/scientific
portuguese - commercial/expansionist
hebrews - religious/scientific
poles - militiristic/expansionist
maghreb - commercial/religious
polynesian - expansionist/religious?
hmmm..........bedtime

[monkspider]

As interesting as the Polynesians are, I would say their chances of getting in are quite slim. Not as slim, as some of the really longshots like Austria, or Brazil. But I would advise our local Polynesian fans not to hold their breath.
Unfortunately, Polynesia just doesn't have the marketability that is needed for a game like this. The average gamer has little idea who they were. While their actual accomplishments are probably greater than some civs that are in the game, or are likely to be in the game. They just aren't famous or marketable enough.
You could maybe argue from the space-filler perspective, but they just don't fill a space as crucial as say, Sub-Saharan Africa, South America, etc. Although the space-filler arguement is probably their best chance of getting in. Maybe Firaxis deceides they want a pacific island civ and they think they can create some sort of clever leaderhead for them (I'm imagining a fat, jolly Hawaiian looking guy).
So, in conclusion, even though I think the Polynesian civ is really cool, I just don't think it can make it in. There's always a chance though, so don't lose all hope.

[GoodFella]

Poland is very much a civilization with a great past.

Although for awhile the nation was partitioned by Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Russia, they are not and never were German, Russian, or anything else but Polish.

They are the civilization that gave us Chopin and Madame Curie and Kielbasa (although I'm more of a perogi (sp?) fan myself when it comes to Polish food).

They fought the Mongols. They broke the Teutonic Knights power in the Baltic at the battle of Tannenberg (just so you understand, that means they beat the Germans, ok?). With Poland Vienna and probably much of Eastern Europe would've been part of the Ottomann Empire.

Poland is a great civilization and I believe deserves inclusion more than any other European civ (if not Poland, Hungary, Western Europe is already packed).

[bigvic]

well, polynesia could inlude micro/melanesia, or at least sort of represent them, including easter island, though technically these werre distinct peoples. Polynesia was the biggest, most rejnowned, with an amazingly well developped mythos, and incredible ability to span the pacific. the hawaiian queen - uh, what was her name, uh...lillukanaii? i know thats off, but just woke up and polynesian multivowel names words are a bit too much for me right now - as well as the maoris of new zealand (ever seen the movie, Once Werre Warriors?) make a strong case to me for their inclusion, as well as the space filler issue. also i would like to see some programming tricks that made it more likely that civs would start out in areas geographically similar, if possible to their historical starts. i like playing the english, for example, but will sometimes restart adozen times to get them on an island, which feels more "english". also hate things like iceberg zulus and jungle germans sometimes - lol.

yeah, polocks (no offense, thats what they call themselves, right?) definately deserve to be in. noot sure my assessment of mil/exp was good though. perhaps rel/expan - seems to support the big cultural figures as well as tip the hat to the greatest pope since the middle ages. historical poland is a classic example of a civ that got wiped out in game terms "we have eliminated the solid poles! would you like to see the big picture?" you know, however, religious might not be a good trait - they seemed to collapse more as a result of a very long period of anarchy more than anything else. any suggestions? and stay away from scientific unless we can get away from expansionist (no duplication of russia, please) yeah militaristic - they kicked some serious @$$ in their heyday. i think mil/expan is good, as mil/sci would duplicate their other arch nemesis/neighbor, germany.

[Bolt]

I would like much more new features instead of new civs. Civs can all the fans do but its harder at add things like custom rail movement and extra ages (like 6 instead of "just" 4).