Expansionistic trait should be dropped, it's a wasted trait

[WarpStorm]

...or even discovering where your base is when you don't have a clue where mine is...first strike time!!!

[WarpStorm]

I think those players who complain haven't really tried expansionistic civs. (Yes, Barry, I admit it. I've gone 180 on this, I think they are good now, even the English)

[Kingof the Apes]

Another advantage is the possibility of discovering writing early on.
This means embassies, and military alliances, and early MA's would also be a huge advantage.

[FrustratedPoet]

Expansionist Civs are gonna have a BIG advantage in multi-player games.
In that environment knowledge is the key to victory ... you have to know where your opponents King (for a regicide game) or city (for Elimination) is before they know where yours is otherwise you'll be fighting blind.
In standard games who know that the other humans will almost never sell you their world maps, nor will they let you get more than one square inside their borders ... it is vital that you explore the map yourselves - if you don't know where everything is (cities, luxuries, resources) then you will miss out ... scouts will be great for this.

Of course ... the Civ with an even BIGGER advantage will be the Aztecs (beware Vel's green menace!) ), since their Jaguar Warriors are more-or-less scouts anyway and they have two other excellent traits.

[kittenOFchaos]

Expansionistic civilizations often get extra settlers, cities, alot of tech and money in the early part of the game.

In addition to easily being able to explore for city sites and other civilizations in the early game so setting up contacts to swap technology.


I think expansionistic is on average capable of bringing your civilization at least 6 technologies, several hundred gold in addition to early contacts and being able to spot quickly optimum city sites I think it is of tremendous worth.


There will be times that expansionistic will not be worth having -if you are stuck on a small continent- but the reverse being if you are on a large continent is worth it.

A final positive is that GA are easy to obtain as building the Great Lighthouse gives expansionistic civs a golden age (well, certainly it does for the English every time in my experience.)

[Optimizer]

Expansionists should get a cheap coast-only ship, so that they can use the trait also when they start on an island.

[Artifex]

For all that say exspansionistic gives great tech..I always get the great library as I rate it as invaluable on emperor and diety level I play at.

This further diminishes expansionistic. The only thing youcan say it is good for is exploration but the value of exploration is way overstated. You can get resoruces by exploring with regular units. I agree that scientific sucks hard too. I feel Militaristic is by far the most powerful trait, it just OWNS by FAR. Then Religious and Industrius.

Commercial follows, then scientific, then expansionist (all 3 need to be beefed up to come up to par with the top 3). I dislike all 3, but hate expansionist with a passion.. since I make it an absolute priority to get Great Library and get all ancient techs free anyway, then I have industrius and militaristic ta boot..or religious depending on my mood.

[WarpStorm]

Artifex, how are you going to get the Great Library in MP when I'm expansionistic and find the techs to research it first?

[Inverse Icarus]

and when he can see the city that you're building it in?

[Inverse Icarus]

personally, i'm not fond of the expansionist trait, but i usually play as the aztecs (the warrior has to moves, same effect, and it can defend).

but in MP i'm definately treating scouts in my territory as an act of war.

[WarpStorm]

Aztecs are more or less expansionistic in my book, they get a fast cheap unit that they can scout with from the beginning.

UberKrux, you won't be alone in treating scouts as enemies.

[Artifex]

You think PTW games are gonna be long and drawn out? I wonder how the simultaneous moves will help this, if at all.

[WarpStorm]

I think it can be a lot faster if you want it to be. It depends on a lot of things. Simultaneous (and Turnless) will speed things up. So will time limits on turns. Setting a time, point, or turn limit for the entire game can bound it. Certain game modes will be faster than the standard. For example, Regicide and Elimination can be very fast for the loser (in Regicide if you lose your king you are out, in Elimination if you lose any city you are out). In general, I'd say PTW games will be faster paced than standard civ, unless you do traditional turn-based with unlimited time on turns.

In addition, some players will be much more aggressive than the AI players are. I'd watch those first few cities (especially if you are non-expansionistic )

[Traelin]

I agree that the Expansionist trait will be invaluable in MP games, especially since there won't be a slew of AI getting research breaks. The Expansionist civs will have it much easier gaining an early tech lead, finding resources, etc.

But I DO NOT agree that it is very useful in SP games. I mean c'mon, how many of you are going to tell me that you don't reveal at least SOME of the map in the beginning to see if you have a decent starting location, then reload if you don't? If you don't do this, congratulations on wasting your own time after getting stuck in tundra. SP and MP are two different animals...Expansionist is gonna be AWESOME for MP, and it truly truly SUX for SP.

[WarpStorm]

Sorry, I play my games out till it is clear that it's totally hopeless (I've won a few tundra starts) and count it as a loss by retiring. This isn't ever in the first few turns.