Oppositions to Arabs

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by CivilopediaCity

Indeed, that's true. But the Palestines are just going to continue with blowing up car bombs, etc. So the thing Israel has to do, is wipe out al the terroristic Palestines and if they continue then, wipe out al the Palestines. I think I'm getting much on my point of view, but that's the way it is. I don't want it, though. And the won't do it, because they can't make it in world politics.

Yet again, from damned near any POV --

"In loyalty to their kind, they cannot tolerate our rise \
In loyalty to our kind, we cannot tolerate their obstruction." ( -- Grace Slick)

MAYBE this and countless other geopolitical situations have moved well beyond "right" and "wrong", if ever they began that way in the first place.

We are tribal creatures ("tribe" = "primate 'troop'" + big brains). We --each real-world "Civ" -- have our totems (symbols and unexamined ideologies we revere) and taboos (I'll pick "Don't eat pork" because it's followed by orthodox Jews and Muslims both).

The GAME Civ3 is about identifying and defining our pre-enlightened polities and seeing what happens -- and by "pre-enlightened" all I'm really talking about is "Hey, maybe there's some better solution than making certain everyone is miserable, even if it involves -- *gasp* and !horror! -- compromise".

To quote no less than Einstein: "I don't know what weapons the next [global] war will be fought with, but I know what the one AFTER that will be fought with: sticks and stones".

Maybe we should add a SMAC-like "Transcendant" victory to Civ3 and let that be the only way to victory ... (just kidding) ... although it might be a good object lesson to encourage the more livid among us to try.

Peace, Salaam, Shalom -- and friendly advice to everyone everywhere to make certain that the face in the mirror isn't your enemy's.

-Ozymandias

[Sonic]

Please note that people under age 48 fitting for military service is not the same as army. So Israel doesn't has one million size army. This is for sure, I had top 10 armies list somewhere and I think Israel wasn't even on that list.

I believe Israel should be one of the remaining 7 slots. But, however, I hate when Jews starts arguing that Israel is maybe the most important country in the world and Jews are better than everyone other (their politics on Palestinians indicates so). I think this was the major reason why Jews were so hated everywhere and why all the anti-semitism started.

Please note that remarks I written about Jews doesn't indicate that all Jews does so, but at least about 50% does. This is not a prejustice but a decition based on personal experience and reading these forums.

Many countries did moret than Israel in fact - I am not even talking about Arabs now, Netherlands, Poland, Lithuania, even maybe Pakistan had more influence to history.

In my opinion Jews aren't better than other nations, everyone is equal. It is very bad that Jews can wave that anti-semitic flag and that means any comment said against them is "bad", it even puts the poster on such position as if he would support Hitler. However, there are no such "anti-Lithuanian", "anti-Arab" flags.

Claiming that someone is anti-semitic in my opinion is just an insult, which shows that one who called other one like that just isn't capable to discuss. This is the same as saying "f*ck you" in a clever discution. It is really bad that claiming that someone is anti-semitic or racist or fascist is ussuakky being understood as a clever arguement instead of insutlt, like "f*ck you" would be understood.

To make it clear, I have no prejustice against Jews (which means I am not anti-semitic, since this word actually means people who hates Jews for no/close to no reasons, like Hitler for example), I also think that Jewish genocide was bad (but I however don't think it was more worse than other genocides all over the world as many seem to think).

[roalan]

Lithuanian's

I see where your coming from especially when Lithuania took part in the genocide of Jews. I do not believe Lithuania contributed anything to the history of the world except be in the way for numerous wars in the area. Yhe Jews on the other hand muddled along with the basic laws that humans govern themselves along with a few other folks such as einstein. Luthuanians on the other hand are brave folks that helped the Nazi's guard and kill unarmed people.

[Sonic]

OK roalan, you are one who does have prejustice because I doubt you met at least one Lithuanian in real life.

Anyway, Lithuania contributed to history not much if comparing to huge empires like Arab Caliphate, Britain, Mongol Empire, China, Japan, etc. I will obviously admit that. But they certainly contributed much more than Israel (we've had huge empire spanning from Baltic to Black sea in middle ages, etc.). As for taking part of genocide, this was very few people who killed Jews. In most other countries the same number of people would do exacly the same, there are fascists everyweher not to mention that most of people who killed Jews were forced to do so. Many Lithuanians however helped Jews to escape from nazis and hidden them in their own homes, risking to be killed or took to concentration camp themselves.

[roalan]

Israel

Read your history books. Israel contributed the basis of most of the religons in the world fpr starters. Israel was once the leading country in the world under David.
One of the largest thorns in the Roman side was Israel always rebelling. Lithuania did little to stand up against the Nazi's and Soviets. A great number of the leading people in history were Jewish especially in ratio to the Jewish population usually only around 13 million. A great many of the German leading figures were Jewish long before the Yellowed Bellied Nazi's took over.
Who do you think built the Pyrimads ? Not the Egyptians.
If Lithuanian's believe in the 10 commandments ? Do they ever wonder where they came from. Other then the above, and I am sure there is much more I do not know about, What has Lithuania contributed to mankind?I think I can match you 1-1 or 10-1 on that subject..
Oh yes about Palestine the country called Israel that the ROMANS changed to Palestine. I can not seem to find in any history book that existed even for a day as an independent country but some how expect to be handed a free hunk of someone elses country.Israel would have to have rocks in their head to agree to that.Why that would be like say Lithuania turning over part of their land to Russia or Lativia or Estonia. Somehow I do not think you would do this. No sane country would do this.The Indians in the USA have been asking for their land back .I say it won't happen what say you?

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Ozymandias
To quote no less than Einstein: "I don't know what weapons the next [global] war will be fought with, but I know what the one AFTER that will be fought with: sticks and stones".

Hehe that's one of my favorite quotes. I used to use it in my sig at work.

Originally posted by Ozymandias
Peace, Salaam, Shalom -- and friendly advice to everyone everywhere to make certain that the face in the mirror isn't your enemy's.

-Ozymandias

That's wise advice. I still say that our humanity will never allow us to view it that way. But we can all hope.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Sonic
Please note that people under age 48 fitting for military service is not the same as army. So Israel doesn't has one million size army. This is for sure, I had top 10 armies list somewhere and I think Israel wasn't even on that list.

Argh, people will either disagree or agree with the statistics, so I'll avoid this one yet again.

Originally posted by Sonic
I believe Israel should be one of the remaining 7 slots. But, however, I hate when Jews starts arguing that Israel is maybe the most important country in the world and Jews are better than everyone other (their politics on Palestinians indicates so). I think this was the major reason why Jews were so hated everywhere and why all the anti-semitism started.

That is ruling from the specific to the general, a very bad idea. I'd wager you met someone who happened to be Jewish that you didn't get along with. I've met tons of people I didn't see eye to eye with (no pun intended ), and they've been white, black, Atheist, 9-fingered (yes, literally hehe), etc. But remember, we all have prejudices. However, to paint an entire group as being this or that is bad.

Originally posted by Sonic
Please note that remarks I written about Jews doesn't indicate that all Jews does so, but at least about 50% does. This is not a prejustice but a decition based on personal experience and reading these forums.

I'm not Jewish, yet I defend them with vigor. Maybe this is the reason you have the impression they are so defensive. I'm not trying to make them all out as martyrs, but you have to admit that history has been a bit *ahem* unfavorable to them. Other groups have experienced the same thing, but it just so happens that we are discussing Israel because of the inclusion of the Arab Civ in Civ3.

Originally posted by Sonic
Many countries did moret than Israel in fact - I am not even talking about Arabs now, Netherlands, Poland, Lithuania, even maybe Pakistan had more influence to history.

Saying MANY countries have done more than Israel is being a bit liberal. I would certainly say there are Civs that have contributed a great deal to society, like the Netherlands (which you mentioned, and which I feel should have been one of the original 16 Civs). No offense intended, because I think every group of people have contributed to humanity. But it's a bit of a stretch to suggest Poland or Lithuania did as much as Israel in the grand scheme of things.

Originally posted by Sonic
In my opinion Jews aren't better than other nations, everyone is equal. It is very bad that Jews can wave that anti-semitic flag and that means any comment said against them is "bad", it even puts the poster on such position as if he would support Hitler. However, there are no such "anti-Lithuanian", "anti-Arab" flags.

Agreed, Jews are no better than Americans, Lithuanians, French, or any other country/enthnicity/group. We are all equal, assuming we all ACT equal. Of all groups, I would have to say that Jews are the *least* likely to wave the anti-Semitic flag. I have honestly never met a Jew who asked for pity just because they are Jewish. They are a much more resilient people than most countries give them credit for. I don't think most Muslims wave the anti-Semitic flag either (since they are also Semites). But in all fairness I have to say I've heard waaaay more Mideastern Muslims calling for the death of Israel than I have Jews calling for the death of Islam. Heck, how many times have Israel's neighbors called for jihad on the West and Israel??

Originally posted by Sonic
Claiming that someone is anti-semitic in my opinion is just an insult, which shows that one who called other one like that just isn't capable to discuss. This is the same as saying "f*ck you" in a clever discution. It is really bad that claiming that someone is anti-semitic or racist or fascist is ussuakky being understood as a clever arguement instead of insutlt, like "f*ck you" would be understood.

To make it clear, I have no prejustice against Jews (which means I am not anti-semitic, since this word actually means people who hates Jews for no/close to no reasons, like Hitler for example), I also think that Jewish genocide was bad (but I however don't think it was more worse than other genocides all over the world as many seem to think).

I wasn't aware of anyone calling another anti-Semitic on this thread or any others. Maybe I overlooked it, but I don't think so...

The term anti-Semitic also applies to other Middle Easterners as well.

Genocides are bad, period. But I think the reason the Holocaust is so pervasive in our minds today is because of two reasons:

1. It was recent history.
2. A heck of a lot of people died, more than any other genocide I can think of. The Holocaust also applies in my mind to the 1 million Catholics and the myriad other people who died, 12 million total the last I checked.

[roalan]

Israel Army

Israel does not have anywhere near a million man army. They do not even have any divisions they have Brigades. The Arab countries have divisions but they always seem to lose somehow. I wonder why..

[Traelin]

Re: Lithuanian's

Originally posted by roalan
I see where your coming from especially when Lithuania took part in the genocide of Jews. I do not believe Lithuania contributed anything to the history of the world except be in the way for numerous wars in the area. Yhe Jews on the other hand muddled along with the basic laws that humans govern themselves along with a few other folks such as einstein. Luthuanians on the other hand are brave folks that helped the Nazi's guard and kill unarmed people.

For the sake of objectivity, I would also say it's not fair to paint ALL Lithuanians as aiding the Nazis. That's simply unfair. It's ruling from the specific to the general, which is false logic.

We all need to keep personal feelings out of the debate, and instead present facts.

EDIT: Oh, and let's at least stick with the Israeli/Arab theme, it's much more on-topic.

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by Traelin
They are a much more resilient people than most countries give them credit for. I don't think most Muslims wave the anti-Semitic flag either (since they are also Semites). But in all fairness I have to say I've heard waaaay more Mideastern Muslims calling for the death of Israel than I have Jews calling for the death of Islam. Heck, how many times have Israel's neighbors called for jihad on the West and Israel??

Sorry, there were so many good posts to reply to but you were the last. Don't mean to pick on you or get personal.

You're right, Israelis would find it difficult to call for wiping out all of Islam, however Civolopedia City just mentioned wiping out the Palestinians(agreed he did say he'd wipe out the terrorists first and if that didn't work... and I'm not sure of his ethnicity). Many Israelis and at least one right wing American senator call for the "transfer" of Palestinians from their homes into neighbouring arabic countries. In fact the belated tourism minister in the Israeli government was a good friend of Sharon and was a very strident supporter of this tactic. Check the internet, the idea is very prevalent and the Palestinians believe that all Israelis would like to see this as suspiciously as the Israelis think all Pals want to drive them into the sea.

Let me be clear, I don't believe any side is more evil then the other(I don't believe either side is evil either), but one is certainly more powerful and people seem to forget 30 some-odd years of brutal occupation. You might not like the term brutal or oppression but this is an awful necessity of governing a people that don't want to be governed by you.

In the beginning terrorism was negligable, but Isrealis stayed. Why? Ben-Gurion believed they should get out of the West Bank and Gaza and make peace with their neighbours, he foresaw an ever worsening situation. Others in government wanted the land, fundamentalist Jews wanted Israel in its peak historical borders, so settlements.

I'm just saying there is not one answer to this problem and to often I hear people putting it down to terrorist bombing. The peace offered to the Palestinians was not a just peace in their eyes and there will be militants until there are people willing to compromise.

Edit: I moved off the military topic cause everyone else seems to have, too bad.

[Sonic]

Traelin, I know anti-Semitic could be applied to all Semitic cultures, but it seems it is currently being applied mostly for Jews. And yes, I've seen many Jews on this and other forums calling for death of Arabs and whole Islam and insulting everyone who dares to discuss with them as being "anti-Semitic", "Fascist", "Racist", "neo-nazi" having a pre-justice on Jews, supporting Hitler or his ideas, etc.

As for genocides, for example Soviet genocide was bigger than holocaust and it is also newer. However, most people still thinks holocaust was the worst. I think this is because our obviously bad education system, where people are told in schools as if holocaust would be the worst thing ever happened. Probably because of that some people, non-Jews also, defends Israel for it's obvious crimes. For example, I am sure in Spanish-Baskian discution Spain would get much less supporters than Israel in Israeli-Palestinian discution. And Spain isn't applying such brutal tactics of killing innocent people or children just because they happen to be Baskian.

I've also met "good" Jews, but however majority of ones who I met thinks and acts like I described.

[sabrewolf]

it really is a problem. if you criticise the current israeli regime or say anything against the zionistic way of thinking of very many radical jews, you're automatically considered an anti-semite.

specially germans hardly dare to say anything, because they're worried the world could compare them with the nazi-time-germany.

it's just not fair...

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by Sonic
I've also met "good" Jews, but however majority of ones who I met thinks and acts like I described.

I know this thread is far off topic but it at least follows a certain progression. Nobody here was called anti-semitic and nobody was discussing whether the holocaust was worse or better then any other disaster.

If you want to talk about the general nature of a people or the general nature of a majority of a people, palestinian, jewish or belgian I wish you'd chose another thread.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by gsmoove23

Sorry, there were so many good posts to reply to but you were the last. Don't mean to pick on you or get personal.

You're right, Israelis would find it difficult to call for wiping out all of Islam, however Civolopedia City just mentioned wiping out the Palestinians(agreed he did say he'd wipe out the terrorists first and if that didn't work... and I'm not sure of his ethnicity). Many Israelis and at least one right wing American senator call for the "transfer" of Palestinians from their homes into neighbouring arabic countries. In fact the belated tourism minister in the Israeli government was a good friend of Sharon and was a very strident supporter of this tactic. Check the internet, the idea is very prevalent and the Palestinians believe that all Israelis would like to see this as suspiciously as the Israelis think all Pals want to drive them into the sea.

Let me be clear, I don't believe any side is more evil then the other(I don't believe either side is evil either), but one is certainly more powerful and people seem to forget 30 some-odd years of brutal occupation. You might not like the term brutal or oppression but this is an awful necessity of governing a people that don't want to be governed by you.

In the beginning terrorism was negligable, but Isrealis stayed. Why? Ben-Gurion believed they should get out of the West Bank and Gaza and make peace with their neighbours, he foresaw an ever worsening situation. Others in government wanted the land, fundamentalist Jews wanted Israel in its peak historical borders, so settlements.

I'm just saying there is not one answer to this problem and to often I hear people putting it down to terrorist bombing. The peace offered to the Palestinians was not a just peace in their eyes and there will be militants until there are people willing to compromise.

Edit: I moved off the military topic cause everyone else seems to have, too bad.

Nah, no offense taken. There's nothing wrong with objective debate.

I understand what you're saying about wrongs being committed on both sides. I certainly agree with that. And I don't want to paint either side as "evil". BUT -- I have a hard time maintaining my objectivity when I see Palestinian parents giving their kindergarten aged children signs of Bin Laden, or -- worse yet -- sending them to militant groups to train and become suicide bombers. That's 1500s thinking, not 2002 thinking. It's barbaric, and there's no way to excuse it.

And I still have never heard anyone give me a viable reason why Israel receives all the finger-pointing, when the land they now occupy was won fair and square in a war not initiated by them. Plus, that land is strategically significant. They offered to give back 95% of it, and it still wasn't good enough for Arafat.

EDIT: Let's get back to the general Israeli/Arab discussion, Israeli/Palestinian one is going to get out of hand.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by gsmoove23

I know this thread is far off topic but it at least follows a certain progression. Nobody here was called anti-semitic and nobody was discussing whether the holocaust was worse or better then any other disaster.

If you want to talk about the general nature of a people or the general nature of a majority of a people, palestinian, jewish or belgian I wish you'd chose another thread.

Good post gsmooove.