More Civs for Civ3!

[fittstim]

I looked and I looked but I didn't see an option for Liechtenstein... ...or Andorra ...or the powerhouse of imperialism, San Marino.

[Hagbart]

I would like to see Portugal, Holland, the Incas/ Mayans. And a civ from the small oceania islands: Polynesia.

[Tiberius]

Some maps, just to prove my point about the European medieval powers:

Europe in 1360

Europe in 1500

You can see the mighty Scotland on both maps
Anyway, from the civs that are not in civ3, the biggest were Lithuania, Poland (AFAIK these 2 formed a common union later) and Hungary (if we don't count the nordic nations, who are represented by the vikings).

[Mannamagnus]

The Netherlands - Though afaik they won't be in PtW

[Parsifal]

Originally posted by Tiberius


I'm sorry for such a long post, but Parsifal provoked me:

Sándor Körösi Csoma (1784 - 1842)
born: Körösfalva, Transylvania - died: Darjeeling, India
there, I'd like to see there Hungary or Poland, as well.

Tiberius...Tiberius...Tiberius, your attempts to give Hungary and Poland equality with Scotland are poor. I have heard of some of the guys you mentioned, but they are of peripheral interest. If you want more names, I'll give you them:

John Logie Baird (1888 - 1946)

Engineer. Inventor of the television and later developed ideas such as colour, 3-D and large screen television. Also took out a patent on fibre-optics, a technology now used to carry many telephone calls and traffic on the internet.

Arthur James Balfour (First Earl of Balfour) (1848 - 1930)

Politician. British Prime Minister between 1902 and 1906. The "Balfour Declaration" of 1917 promised the Zionists a home in Palestine

Sir James Barrie (1860 - 1937)

Author and Playright. Best known for the creation of Peter Pan, the boy who would not grow up.

Alexander Graham Bell (1847 - 1922)

Born in Edinburgh. Bell became the inventor of the telephone in 1876.

Rev. Patrick Bell (1800 - 1869)

Invented the reaping machine which was a direct precursor of the modern combine harvester.

Joseph Black (1728 - 1799)

Chemist. Professor of Anatomy and Chemistry in Glasgow University (1756) and then Professor of Medicine and Chemistry in Edinburgh (1766). Developed the concept of "Latent Heat" and discovered Carbon Dioxide ("Fixed Air"). Regarded as the Father of Quantitative Chemistry.

Sir Thomas Makdougall Brisbane (1773 - 1860)

Soldier and Astronomer, born in Largs, Ayrshire. Governor-General of the Australian state of New South-Wales. Set up an observatory and catalogued more than 7000 stars. The city of Brisbane (Australia) is named after him.

Alexander Crum Brown (1838 - 1922)

Organic chemist, born in Edinburgh. He studied in London and Leipzig before returning to Edinburgh in 1863, holding the chair of Chemistry, which now bears his name, until his death. He devised the system of representing chemical compounds in diagrammatic form, with connecting lines representing bonds.

George Brown (1818 - 1880)

Politician and a founding father of Canada, born and educated in Edinburgh. As an Ontario politician, he favoured a federation of the British Colonies in North America and spoke against the French Canadians, developing the deep divisions which persist today. Founder and editor of the "Toronto Globe".

James Bruce (1730 - 1794)

Explorer, born in Stirlingshire. Discovered the source of the Blue Nile in 1770. Was congratulated by the French, but the English did not believe him.

John Buchan (Baron Tweedsmuir) (1875 - 1940)

Author, biographer and politician. Perhaps best known for "The Thirty-Nine Steps". Was also a member of parliament and Governor-General of Canada.

Andrew Carnegie (1835 - 1918)

U.S. iron and steel magnate and great philanthropist. Born in Dunfermline, in Fife. One of the first 3 great corporate tycoons of America. Gave a considerable proportion of his fortune to the benefit of Scotland, including substantial educational endowments and 10,000 church organs.

James Chalmers (1782 - 1853)

Dundee Inventor, Bookseller and Newspaper publisher. Invented the adhesive postage stamp, which made Rowland Hill's Penny Postal service a practical proposition.

Sir Hugh Dalrymple (Lord Drummore) (1700 - 1753)

Invented hollow-pipe drainage. This innovation allowed the drying of water-logged land, bringing large areas into agricultural production.

Sir James Dewar (1842 - 1923)

Physicist and Chemist, born in Kincardine, Fife. Inventor of the vacuum flask.

Robert Dinwiddie (1693 - 1770)

Born near Glasgow, was the Lieutenant-Governor of Virginia. He insisted that the colonies should raise money for their own protection. Discovered George Washington's talents and sent him to resist the French. Thus he was an important figure in American History and has been called the "Grandfather of the United States".

Sir John Sholto Douglas (8th Marquis of Queensberry) (1844 - 1900)

Devised the "Queensberry Rules" for boxing in 1867. Was tried for libelling the Irish playwright Oscar Wilde, who was said to be having a homosexual relationship with Douglas' son, Lord Alfred. This action led to Wilde's disgrace and imprisonment.

John Boyd Dunlop (1840 - 1921)

Inventor. Developed the pneumatic tyre which was to improve the comfort of cyclists and later motorists. Contrary to popular opinion, Dunlop did not invent the pneumatic tyre, it was actually invented by Robert William Thomson.

Adam Ferguson (1723 - 1816)

Born in Logierait, Perthshire, he became Professor of Moral Philosophy at Edinburgh. He introduced the method of studying humankind in groups and is father of the subject now called "Sociology".

Sir Alexander Fleming (1881 - 1955)

Born in Ayrshire, he discovered the world's first antibiotic drug - Penicillin. This was as a result of an "accident" where mould was allowed to grow on a bacterial culture. Fleming was knighted and received the Nobel Prize in 1944.

Sir Sandford Fleming (1827 - 1915)

Canadian railway engineer, born in Kirkcaldy. Surveyed many of the major Canadian railway routes. Became Chief Engineer of the Canadian Pacific Railway in 1872. In 1884, devised the system of standard time which is internationally recognised.

Thomas Graham (1805 - 1869)

Born in Glasgow and educated at Glasgow University. Formulated "Graham's Law" on the diffusion of gases. Father of colloid chemistry.

James Gregory (1638 - 1675)

Inventor of the reflecting telescope, which was developed three years later by the Englishman Sir Isaac Newton.

Earl Haig (1861 - 1928)

Field Marshall. Commanded the allied troops on the Western Front during the First World War. Founded the Earl Haig Fund for the assistance of disabled ex-servicemen (poppy appeal).

David Octavius Hill (1802 - 1870)

Pioneer of Photography, also a Portrait and Landscape Painter.

David Hume (1711 - 1776)

Philosopher, agnostic and leading figure of the Scottish Enlightenment. History's leading sceptic. Hume wrote on human nature, politics and introduced the concept of social history.


James Hutton (1726 - 1797)

Father of modern Geology. His theory of Uniformitarianism was the basis of the explanation of the geological history of the earth, which had in his words "no vestige of a beginning, no concept of an end". Published his "Theory of the Earth" in 1785.

David Livingstone (1813 - 1873)

Explorer and medical missionary. First white man to travel the length of Lake Tanganyika, discovered Victoria Falls and set out to discover the source of the Nile, but died before acheiving his aim. When Henry Stanley was sent to look for Livingstone, he uttered the famous greeting "Dr Livingstone, I presume".

John McAdam (1756 - 1836)

Surveyor and builder of roads. Developed the process of "Macadamisation" which involves covering a road with small broken stones to form a hard surface. This led to tarmacadam (or tarmac), which is still used to cover roads today.

James Ramsay MacDonald (1866 - 1937)

Politician and British Prime Minister. Led the first Labour government in 1924.

Sir John Alexander MacDonald (1815 - 1891)

First Prime Minister of Canada. Born in Glasgow, died in Ottawa, Canada. He was central to bringing about the confederation of Canada (1867) and the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway.

Kirkpatrick Macmillan (1813 - 1878)

Inventor. Invented the bicycle, but never patented it and it was therefore widely copied.

Sir Alexander Mackenzie (1764 - 1820)

Born on the Isle of Lewis. Emigrated to Cananda and worked as a fur trader. The first to journey down the river which bears his name.

James MacPherson (1736-1796)

Writer who "discovovered" the Ossian poems, which kicked off Romantic literature all over the world. The poems were later discovered to be mostly fraudulent, but the impact was immense. The Romantic movement was thereafter associated with ancient folk tales and the like, making successful the works of Scott, the Grimm Brothers and Wagner.

James Clerk Maxwell (1831 - 1879)

Mathematician and Physicist. Contributed significantly to the study of electro-magnetism and prepared the way for quantum physics. Ranks along with Newton and Einstein as one of the World's greatest physicists.

Sir Roderick Impey Murchison (1792 - 1871)

Geologist and Geographer. Born in Tarradale. In 1835 he established the Silurian geological system, and with Sedgwick, the Devonian system. Led a survey of the Russian Empire (1840 - 1845) and predicted the discovery of gold in Australia. A founder of the Royal Geological Society of London. The Murchison Falls (Uganda) and the Murchison River (Australia) are named after him.

John Napier (1550 - 1617)

Mathematician and Astronomer. Devised "Napier's Rods" or "Napier's Bones" which permitted easy multiplication by addition, and this led to him defining the concept of logarithms. Also invented the decimal point.

James Beaumont Neilson (1792 - 1865)

Invented the hot blast oven, which was a great advance in the iron industry. His process reduced the amount of coal needed to produce iron, and greatly increased efficiency to satisfy the demands of the railway and shipbuilding industries.

Mungo Park (1771 - 1806)

Explorer. He mapped large areas of the interior of Africa for the first time, determined the course of the Niger and died trying to find its source.

Sir Walter Scott (1771 - 1832)

Great Scottish patriot, writer and poet. Educated at the Old High School in Edinburgh, he then studied Law at the University of Edinburgh and became an advocate. He did much towards identifying and nurturing a Scottish cultural identity. His literary works include the Waverley Novels, but also he was a translator, biographer (of Napoleon) and passionate collector of all things Scottish. He was buried in the ruins of Dryburgh Abbey.

John Duns Scotus (1265 - 1308)

Philosopher and Theologian. Reknown for his scepticism, which led to the word "Dunses" or "Dunces" being used to describe those who were regarded as not being very clever. In 1991, the Vatican elevated Scotus to the status of "venerable", the first step on the route to Saint-hood.

Sir James Young Simpson (1811 - 1870)

Obstetrician, and son of a baker. Pioneer in the use of anaesthetics, particularly chloroform, developing its use in surgery and midwifery. He championed its use against medical and religious opposition. Queen Victoria used chloroform during child-birth, and this brought general acceptance. Also pioneered obstetric techniques and responsible for much reform of hospital practice.

James Small (1730 - 1793)

Inventor of the iron plough, replacing the existing cumbersome and less robust wooden ploughs.

Adam Smith (1723 - 1790)

Economist. His book "Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations" was the corner-stone of the concept of political economy. Born in Kirkaldy, he was a professor at the University of Glasgow.

Robert Louis Stevenson (1850 - 1894)

Author. His works included "Kidnapped" and "Treasure Island". Suffered from poor health and died in Samoa.

Dugald Stewart (1753 - 1828)

Published "Outlines of Moral Philosophy". A follower of the Common-Sense Philosophy, he systematised the doctrine of the Scottish School, allowing full share to psychological considerations.

Robert William Thomson (1822 - 1873)

Invented the vulcanised rubber pneumatic tyre. He patented his invention in 1845, which was successfully tested in London, however it was abandoned because it was thought too expensive for common use. The tyre was re-invented by John Dunlop in 1888. Thomson's invention is commemorated by a plaque in his native Stonehaven. He also patented the fountain pen (1849) and a steam traction engine (1867).

William Thomson (Lord Kelvin of Largs) (1824 - 1907)

Mathematician and Physicist. Brought up in Scotland, although born in Ireland, he is perhaps best known for the absolute temperature scale which takes his name (Kelvin).

Sir Robert Alexander Watson-Watt (1892 - 1973)

Physicist, born in Brechin. Developed and introduced RADAR during World War II.

James Watt (1736 - 1819)

Developed the steam engine into a practical source of power and invented the governor as a control device.

Sorry if this that was boring, but necessary to give some idea.

The idea that Hungary and Poland have had the same impact as Scotland is totally absurd. As far as I know, Poland and Hungary were only sources of individual contributers rather than centers of important cultural movements. I've never heard of the Hungarian Enlightenment for instance. The concept familiar known in the the English-Speaking world as "social sciences" is Scottish in origin; the industrial revolution was pioneered by Scots; the fields of geology, economics, industrial engineering, sociology, anthropology, anathesiology were pioneered in Scotland. Perhaps more importantly, the idea of progress as a governing force in history is a product of the Scottish Enlightenment.

And before you go too far mocking the size of the independent Scottish kingdom, remember that eastern Europe is largely flat and very easy to conquer whereas Scotland was and is topographically more complicated and harder to unify. Every civ involved with Scotland has found that out to their cost. This is shown by the fact that the Romans built 2 giant walls that cost them a good portion of their GDP rather than subdue the small area to the north. Remeber also that the British Empire was a partnership between England AND Scotland, like the Austro-Hugarian Empire after 1867. It could be more informatively called the Anglo-Scottish Empire. I'm a history student, but I can't see much role for Hungary and Poland except as filling up free space in Eastern Europe on a game-map.

[Tiberius]

Parsifal Parsifal, *sigh*

Do you really think that my list is complete? I tried to keep it short for the sake of the others.

I have heard of some of the guys you mentioned, but they are of peripheral interest

So the binary code, the C vitamin or hydrogen bomb are of peripheral interest? If you say so

Probably you didn't read my post carefully.

PS I really don't want to transform this in a "who's better, who's smarter, who's more important" competition, but if Scotland, Finnland and Serbia are there, I'd like to see there Hungary or Poland, as well.

All I'm asking is a chance, to be there, on the list, so people could vote them (or not). If they prefer to vote Scotland, so be it.

[TheStinger]

Originally posted by Parsifal


I am aware that Hungary and Poland had large medieval empires.

In the case of the Finns, they once inhabited most of north eastern Europe, and I can't see how the Poles and Hungarians are more important. The Serbs also had a large Medieval empire.

But in the case of the Scots, they were far more important. Ever hear of the Scottish Enlightenment. David Hume, Adam Smith, James Hutton, etc. Gave us modern capitalism, the historiography of progress which made marxism possible, geology. The idea of the social sciences is a product of the Scottish enlightenment. Also, James Watt, the guy whose development of the steam engine made the Industrial Revolution possible. Then later there was Alexander Graham Bell (telephone), John Logie Baird (television), James Dewar (vacuum flask), Robert Watson-Watt (radar), Alexander Fleming (penicillin), John Loudon MacAdam (tarmac), and many, many more.
People all over the world sing Amazing Grace and Auld Lang Syne. And the modern historical novel began with Scott, imitated by Tolstoy, Austen, Hardy and eveyone elseto give us the most popular novels of the 19th century. In adddition, to golf, tartan, whisky,etc, Scotland has clearly more important than Poland and Hungary put together in terms of influence on modern culture, ( I am aware of Marie Curie and Copernicus).

Scotland was part of the UK.

I don't think tartan counts as a cultural icon.

the Steam engine did not make the industrial revolution possible, its deveopment was caused by it.

Scotland was only ever a medieval society when on its own, it can't be included as a civ for the game

[Kalgacus]

Originally posted by TheStinger


Scotland was part of the UK.

I don't think tartan counts as a cultural icon.

the Steam engine did not make the industrial revolution possible, its deveopment was caused by it.

Scotland was only ever a medieval society when on its own, it can't be included as a civ for the game

That's not true TheStinger. The Union was in 1707, well into the modern era. England and Scotland ceased to exist as independent political entities in the same year, but England is in the game. America was only a modern society own its own, yet they are in the game. Scotland was independent for almost 1000 years, whereas America has been independent a quarter of that period. The Zulu, Aztecs and Iroquois are confined to the ancient era and the Celts and Iroquois were never independent entities.

Of course tartan is a cultural icon, jeese, you do talk some nonsense. Please put a little more thought into your posts in future.

Originally posted by Tiberius

So the binary code, the C vitamin or hydrogen bomb are of peripheral interest? If you say so

Probably you didn't read my post carefully.

Having read Parsifal's post, I don't think you understood him correctly. He meant, rightly or wrongly, that they are of peripheral interest because there were not part of a concentrated movement. Am I right Parsifal?
Tiberius, knowing a bit about all the civs under discussion, I don't think your going to establish that the Scots and Hungarians are equals in these terms. The guys only Parsifal's biography list are more important even than the ones you choose to place at the head of yours. Albert von Szent-Györgyi and Sándor Körösi Csoma are important, but there are guys not on parsifal's list just as important like Fraser.

[TheStinger]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Kalgacus


That's not true TheStinger. The Union was in 1707, well into the modern era. England and Scotland ceased to exist as independent political entities in the same year, but England is in the game. America was only a modern society own its own, yet they are in the game. Scotland was independent for almost 1000 years, whereas America has been independent a quarter of that period. The Zulu, Aztecs and Iroquois are confined to the ancient era and the Celts and Iroquois were never independent entities.

Of course tartan is a cultural icon, jeese, you do talk some nonsense. Please put a little more thought into your posts in future.

EDIT- my reply
Scotland never amounted to being more than a small european power. I'm not defending the inclusion of other nations just saying that Scotland shouldn't be in.

I'll put as much though as I want into my posts as I want than you.

Just because tartan is everywhere doesn't make it a cultural icon. What is cultural about colourful patchwork.

[fittstim]

I'm wondering what the big deal is?

Poland and Hungary where two very large powerful Kingdoms/Empires - albeit a while ago. Scotland was not.

Scotland has as many merits for inclusion as does Albania.

[TheStinger]

Originally posted by fittstim
I'm wondering what the big deal is?

Poland and Hungary where two very large powerful Kingdoms/Empires - albeit a while ago. Scotland was not.

Scotland has as many merits for inclusion as does Albania.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Kalgacus
...I don't think your going to establish that the Scots and Hungarians are equals in these terms. The guys only Parsifal's biography list are more important even than the ones you choose to place at the head of yours.

In what terms should the scots and the hungarians be equal? Or in what way are the scots more important? How do you count this? In total number of inventions / nation or in Nobel Prize winners / square km or how?
The mongols have no scientific or cultural achievements, yet they are in. I also can vote aborigines or aliens but the hungarians, who were for centuries a powerful kingdom and later gave the world important scientists, inventors or artists, not? And why not? Because some arrogant young student thinks that hungarian scientist "are of peripheral interest" and

I can't see much role for Hungary and Poland except as filling up free space in Eastern Europe on a game-map.

Did I ask to replace Scotland with Hungary in the poll? No. Then why does he insult me and my nation (and the Poles, too) ?

[Parsifal]

Originally posted by Tiberius

In what terms should the scots and the hungarians be equal? Or in what way are the scots more important? How do you count this? In total number of inventions / nation or in Nobel Prize winners / square km or how?
The mongols have no scientific or cultural achievements, yet they are in. I also can vote aborigines or aliens but the hungarians, who were for centuries a powerful kingdom and later gave the world important scientists, inventors or artists, not? And why not? Because some arrogant young student thinks that hungarian scientist "are of peripheral interest" and
Did I ask to replace Scotland with Hungary in the poll? No. Then why does he insult me and my nation (and the Poles, too) ?

I'll level with you Tiberius, I'm a Canadian but I've recently been reading about the Scots, and I was stunned by how important they really were. Before I was ignorant. North American historical scholarship is only beginning to understand how important they were, and so I expect and find sky-high levels of ignorance on the subject, which probably explains my apparent "arrogance". Personally, I am biased towards the history of ideas rather than empires, that is why I would favor the Scots over the Hungarians and Poles, but I admit that Poland and Hungary both had larger empires. However, in these terms neither Poland nor Hungary are significant on a large historical scale. In terms of territory the Khazaks, the Mali, the Parthians, the berbers, the Avars, the Huns, the Bantu, the Scythians, etc, etc, have had territories and empires which in these terms of historical size dwarf Hungary. Yet most of these civs are not much more than irrelevant to the main-stream of history. Civs are important, in my view, because of their contributions to the "mainstream" of history: this is the story that emerges when one traces the roots of today's dominant cultural and political forces. Not just selecting at random large transient empires from various periods and sticking them in the poll.
I'm sure you will then ask why I included civs like the Aborigines and Polynesians and the Canadians and Australians. The answer I would give is that I am aware that others seek historical balance and the satisfaction of their own liberal and national feelings. However, I couldn't and wouldn't include every one of them. You should take note that the Poles are in the Poll, hidden to the ignorant as "the Serbs or other Slavic civ". In hindsight because there are about 10 options I chose not to use, I would have included Hungary if given the chance again. But this is only a small poll on the topic of a computer game, so let's not take it too seriously.

BTW, thanks Kalgacus for your support! :goodjob:

[Cyclotron]

I'm going to have to go with the Inca, because we need a good Civ to fill out that abandoned continent south of the Aztecs... Geographical distribution.

[Kalgacus]

Tiberius, I was defending Parsifal because I agreed with what he was saying and your tone of your writing was slightly aggressive.

I know that you disagree, but I think it is very difficult to argue that Hungary has the same importance as Scotland in terms of influence on the modern world. Parsifal's case is very strong, so I think that it is up to you to supply new arguments if you want to make the case for your country.