New Wonder: Hollywood

[Catt]

We have probably done enough thread-jacking up to this point . I don't disagree that it would be nice to have a few non-American wonders, but don't have anything great to suggest -- I think that Mecca (or the Ka'ba (sp?) - the stone in Mecca that is the object of the compulsory pilgrimmage) is too imbued with pure religious significance, as is the Dome of the Rock (politics there, too) - for an Islamic wonder I would proboably default to the Blue Mosque or a second "Great Library" of some sort representing the cultural significance of Muslim Andulucia (though a practicing Muslim should be chiming in here ). Modern wonders are tougher.

Hollywood . . . . not for me.

Catt

[std_bomber]

I'd just like to point out a few spots where you really dont know what youre talking about...

Originally posted by DeepO
When comparing Assouan and Hoover on an industrial level, I vote for Assouan. It has about the same electricity output, but those 2 GigaWatts are relatively much more important in Egypt. I think Assouan wins here...
DeepO

wow. assouan is important to egypt and supplies 50% of egypt's power. unfortunately egypt's a dump. supplying half the power to a crappy, developing nation is not exactly a wonder of the world.

and "on an industrial level" what exactly is egypt's prestigious industry? sand dunes?

Originally posted by DeepO
Sure, a lot of people were forcedly moved to make room for lake Nasser
DeepO

why are you trying to rationalize this dam and its negative impact? half the people in egypt dont even like it. the only reason people of heard of it is because it was such a fiasco.

and the egyptians didnt even build the dam themselves! is it a wonder of the world for the soviets or the united nations then?

and what do you mean that lots of dams in america break? ive never heard of random dams breaking and sweeping thousands of people away. i have read several news articals about child pornography rings based in belgium though...

Originally posted by DeepO
Just a big statue? It was about the same size of the statue of liberty, completely made of bronze, but only build some 2000 years before... I'd say it is the biggest technological feat of the ancient wonders. Too bad we can't see it anymore, it surely would make me speachless.
DeepO

a technological feat? it fell over after 50 years. wow.

Originally posted by DeepO
Maybe this is a reason why there should be many modern American wonders in Civ, as the cultural pressure is indeed big right now, but diminishing. Nobody still watches CNN, it has turned into a pure propaganda channel with little real value and people are seeing that too. MTV the same, with the coming of other music channels, nobody watches MTV anymore in Belgium... their reaction: buy the other channels
DeepO

you say american culture is diminishing because less nonamericans are watching cnn and mtv? what are they watching instead? belgium versions of cnn and mtv. how is that your own culture? you didnt invent the 24 hour news channel or the music video, but you liked it so much that you had to copy it and pretend it's your own. every continent now has it's own version of mtv (e.g. much music, mtv europe) and cnn (e.g. al-jezeria, sky news, etc.).

and what do you think they show on the belgium version of mtv? rock, r'n'b, and hiphop, all of which are american creations. either the orignal american artists, or some funny european imitation of rock, rnb, and hiphop. it's just american culture in a different lanuage. youve adopted our culture are a promulgating it yourself now!

Originally posted by DeepO
The last really global TV phenomena, Big Brother, was Dutch.
DeepO

this proves my point. big brother was a rip-off of mtv's 'the real world', an american invention. you just put it in a lanuage you could better understand. thanks for spreading our culture!

Originally posted by DeepO
I have to agree with you on American music, and even if I don't think that many styles were originally created by pure American people,
DeepO

what do you mean "pure American people"? i assume you are trying to imply that black people arent "pure American people." i dont even know where to start with that crap. who are the "pure American people" then? america is made up every race and etchnicity in the world, and has been for the whole of it's history.

I guess youre from belgium. it reminds me of an article in 'the economist' a couple years ago about how belgium is the most racist country in western europe. and yes, your country is much worse than america when it comes to racism.

Originally posted by DeepO
It was, I think, the beginning of true globalisation of the music market. But even if US companies dominate the world market (apart from Bertellsman),
DeepO

this is just a small error, but still, you really dont know what youre talking about. the 5 major music distributors in the world are:

Bertellsman (german)
sony (japan)
venvedi/universal (french)
EMI/Virgin (british)
timewarner (us)

the thing is, they all distribute american music to every part of the world, because that's what every single part of the world wants to hear (and buy).

no one puts a gun to their head and forces these poor nonamericans to buy the latest britney spears cd. they did it cos they like it! the same goes for american movies, mc donalds, and coke. they wouldnt be in your country if your people didnt want to see them. that's what they want, so get over it! it's like drugs. no matter how much certain people try to badmouth them and stop them from entering the county, there gonna be there because people want them.

Originally posted by DeepO
for instance which one of the two has the biggest audience: the MTV music awards, or the Eurovision song contest?
DeepO

MTV wins with people that actually matter, i.e. those under 30.

who the hell watches the euro vision song contest???!!! that's a tv show for middle aged women who are trying to decide which one cd single theyre going to buy that year (and probably hang out at the sistene chapel). youre a dork.

Originally posted by DeepO
Europeans for more realistical graphic novels...One of the examples where American (economic) cultural pressure is not working at all.
DeepO

how old are you? comic books, or as you call them, "graphic novels," are for kids. grow up and watch a fine american made movie! i recommend 'turner and hooch'.

[Adm.Naismith]

Bomber, IMHO you are jumping "with both feet" in a clever and motivated debate. Of course you can agree or not with others opinion, but I can't understand why you think that DeepO is offending USA or making racist declaration (may be I missed some part on my quick reading, please correct me). The mentioned part about not "pure native americans" seems to me simply a sidenote about the mix of imported and assimilate (I smiled at "borg style" Catt's example) culture. IIRC some part of coloured people in USA (I mean black people in a not offensive means, BTW) mention themselves as "native africans" or something. Sometimes USA are simply a too big place to cover so much cultural point, and excessively try to blend them in a "one size fits all" mix that's not good for world culture. I'm sure European Union will suffer some similar effects into the next years: we had some trouble simply leaving our olds coins and notes for the new souless Euro

Bomber, please reconsider your point of view and please forgive my english in advance (english is not my first language, if I have one at all )

[Spiffor]

Bomber, I'm extremely disappointed by your post. While Deep0 raised interesting (although debatable) points, you jump in basically saying Egypt sucks, then Assouan sucks. Belgium sucks, then Deep0 sucks. In your frenzy, you even accuse Deep0 of racism (his "pure American" word had nothing to do with race in his context, but with co-elaboration of a new artform with Europe)

I sincerely advise you to heavily edit your post, if you don't want the quality of this thread to fall.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Des Esseintes :
10 culture per turn up to 100 ????? You almost ensure culture flip against you will never happen, and you give level2 borders to conquered cities in 10 turns, without any cultural investment from the conqueror.
WAAAAAY to overpowering. Your initial suggestion was more reasonable, because a city would need 50 turns to get its lvl2 borders, not 10.
If Firaxis followed your suggestion, culture would be completely killed in the modern era : the big conqueror could conquer as freely as in Civ2, without worrying for is new cities, which aren't rebel anymore.

[Strakorfsky]

Hm, personaly, Hollywood is a city as you said, NOT A WONDER. And it is a creation of a city with movie production in it, and what self-respecting antion would want a hollywood that fills its young children with bad ideas. So, if they do add hollywood, more then likely, to stick with historical accuracy, it would take away culture, and at the same time, add money, that is what it should be not some culture addin', city flippen sort' thing.

[Strakorfsky]

Hm, Deepo, calling the Civ3 makers Bias is a flawed and yet truthful basis, I noticed that most of the wonders in modern industrial age are Western in making. I wonder why? A great deal of idnustrial age wonders came from the soviet union that are untold. First, the true first space program was in Russia, not America. The Appolo Program should be named the Vostok program

Also, the first true modern spi agency was in Russia, the KGB, but yet they consider the Pentagon to be an American thing, when it should have been named The Kremlin, funny though

And also, Universal Sufferage, the first concepts of that were in the Soviet Union when the Obelisk of Kerkouf was built, it celebrated the womens strength and as more an equal of the working male, but no one ever noticed that

I guess the Firaxis team did not want to do their home work on industrial wonders. :sad:

[std_bomber]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Bomber, I'm extremely disappointed by your post. While Deep0 raised interesting (although debatable) points, you jump in basically saying Egypt sucks, then Assouan sucks. Belgium sucks, then Deep0 sucks. In your frenzy, you even accuse Deep0 of racism (his "pure American" word had nothing to do with race in his context, but with co-elaboration of a new artform with Europe)

I sincerely advise you to heavily edit your post, if you don't want the quality of this thread to fall.

oh you wacky europeans. you really dont care about facts, do you? what did I say in my post was untrue? Im so sorry I pointed out areas in which deepo was mistaken. it seems you europeans have no use for facts and reality. it's easier to just make stuff up, especially when it justifies your antiquated sense of european superiority.

please. which of my points were not objective? which of my statements were incorrect? all i did in my post was to point out which of deepo's statements were incorrect. believe it or not, egypt is a devolping nation, and relative to america, it sucks. do you want to live there?
if you go over deepo's posts on the hollywood, i hope that you would notice that deepo has a tendency to make things up to fit his antiamerican emotions.

for example:

he first said that hoover dam broke and killed a bunch of people, which is over couse untrue, and laughable.

after he was forced to admit that he was wrong about hoover dam breaking, he had to add that dams in america break all the time and kill lots of people. again, this is of course a complete lie.

about the racism thing, he said "pure american people," not purely american people. the meanings are entirely different. deepo is implying that only anglos are "pure american people," and that is racist.

im sorry if my post came off as meanspirited and blunt, but judging from Catt's attempts, reasoning with deepo would be like reasoning with yassar arafat or something. whatever. .

[std_bomber]

Originally posted by Strakorfsky
Hm, Deepo, calling the Civ3 makers Bias is a flawed and yet truthful basis, I noticed that most of the wonders in modern industrial age are Western in making. I wonder why? A great deal of idnustrial age wonders came from the soviet union that are untold. First, the true first space program was in Russia, not America. The Appolo Program should be named the Vostok program

the apollo program landed on the moon. did the vostok?

Originally posted by Strakorfsky
Also, the first true modern spi agency was in Russia, the KGB, but yet they consider the Pentagon to be an American thing, when it should have been named The Kremlin, funny though

the pentagon won the cold war, the kgb lost. wouldnt you want to build a winner, especially if it's classified as a wonder of the world, not a blunder of the world?

Originally posted by Strakorfsky
And also, Universal Sufferage, the first concepts of that were in the Soviet Union when the Obelisk of Kerkouf was built, it celebrated the womens strength and as more an equal of the working male, but no one ever noticed that

wyoming granted women suffrage in 1869. the rest of the usa did in 1920.

i dont know when the Obelisk of Kerkouf was built, but there wasnt real democracy in the soviet union, so what would be the point of having the right to vote? it's not really suffrage, is it?

Originally posted by Strakorfsky
So, if they do add hollywood, more then likely, to stick with historical accuracy, it would take away culture,

i know it's popular to bash hollywood and the media and all things american, but hollywood had an important role in many social changes in america.

civil rights, women's rights, the vietnam war, sexual liberation, etc.


Strakorfsky i like you. i like russia too. please dont take this the wrong way.

[Catt]

This thread has gone completely wrong, and I'm quite a bit a fault here, since I originally threadjacked it - when I saw my friend DeepO comparing Hoover to Aswan, I had to jump in (knowing I would get a lively discussion with DeepO going).

I lived in Egypt for some time; even mentioning Aswan brings back pleasant memories for me. Saying Egypt is a "dump" contributes nothing to the discussion. Attacking DeepO personally actively degrades the discussion.

The game is biased towards American and "Western" concepts - but this shouldn't be a surprise - it was conceived, designed, and marketed to (as its largest audience) an American audience.

One can still argue that America "deserves" many late game wonders without denigrating other countries. And one can still think that America itself is a Wonder of the World given the whole of human history (particularly political history) without attacking others who feel differently.

My apologies for threadjacking - this thread should be about the opportuntity to include "Hollywood" as a WoW in PTW.

Catt

[Jon Shafer]

A lot of people wonder why America is even in Civ 3 at all... trying to convince them that many American 'wonders' belong in is ludicrous.

[DeepO]

std_bomber, I'm am not going to respond to any of your points, they are rude, and offensive to me. And most of them are completetly ripped from context, I mean, you (should) know that my English is not perfect, so concluding from one grammatical flaw that I am racist simply goes too far. Maybe it's different where you come from, but calling someone racist is for me about the same as saying that someone's mother is a b***.

DeepO

[SABRA]

we can add a total of 256 wonders , but the thing aint working that good
sometimes the picture of the wonder is missing in the city view

[SABRA]

Originally posted by Trip
A lot of people wonder why America is even in Civ 3 at all... trying to convince them that many American 'wonders' belong in is ludicrous.

, in the modern world its a culture we cant go without .

maybe if we could make a civ that certainly comes from a new civ , like in civ2 , that would do a lot .

[std_bomber]

Originally posted by DeepO
std_bomber, I'm am not going to respond to any of your points, they are rude, and offensive to me. And most of them are completetly ripped from context, I mean, you (should) know that my English is not perfect, so concluding from one grammatical flaw that I am racist simply goes too far. Maybe it's different where you come from, but calling someone racist is for me about the same as saying that someone's mother is a b***.

DeepO

im sorry i offended you. i didnt realize it was rude to actually question all the silly crap you like to make up.

please defend your glorious soviet dam that made egypt not "suck," as I like to say.

and please tell me more about how america sucks and our culture is dying. please.

[std_bomber]

Originally posted by Catt
The game is biased towards American and "Western" concepts - but this shouldn't be a surprise - it was conceived, designed, and marketed to (as its largest audience) an American audience.
Catt

Originally posted by Trip
A lot of people wonder why America is even in Civ 3 at all... trying to convince them that many American 'wonders' belong in is ludicrous.

i challege all of you to prove there is an american bias in the game.

please tell me what non american wonders would be in the game if it were designed by objective europeans.
can you name any modern wonders that werent built by america? the millenium feris wheel in london? the ferris wheel itself? belgum waffels? i cant think of a single one. please prove me wrong.

your pal,
std mannn