How to fix the UN

[SeferKoheleth]

The UN is pretty useless right now-- just enabling a diplomatic victory that most of us never use. Here's a simple suggestion on how to fix it.

The UN should function like the Planetary Council in Alpha Centauri-- lots of "international treaties." Treaties are passed with a majority vote, and the person with the UN gets veto power.

Possible treaties:

Kyoto Treaty-- reduces pollution 50% in all cities

GATT Treaty-- adds 5 commerce points to every city

Nuclear Disarmarment-- all civs declare war on any civ to use nukes

Geneva Convention-- Cannot cature or use foreign national workers, cannot destroy cities

Any other suggestions?
(yes, I know I posted this elsewhere, but I thought it deserved its own forum)

[Pythagoras]

A basic premise of the UN is that gaining land via conquest is wrong.

I agree with you but it seems that lots of your suggestions would be beneficial to everyone with no drawbacks. How about adding some drawbacks like:

Kyoto Treaty - Production is quartered in all cities, pollution by population is halved

GATT - I suppose this is some sort of trade globalization treaty, hmm how about +15% commerce/city (and culture) in the wealthiest civs but -15% commerce/city in civs with the most resources/luxeries in their borders.

Others are good.

How about international sanctions? In fact maybe there could be a system whereby the UN gets together and votes that all member civs should clean all pollution n terms after its produced (or a gazillion other things that could be agreed upon), maybe if that is violated international sanctions could be enforced on that civ or something.

[monkspider]

These are good ideas, anything to add to the ailing condition of the UN would be wonderful. Adding the ability to force one country to declare peace with another is pretty much a must.

[SeferKoheleth]

Originally posted by Pythagoras
Kyoto Treaty - Production is quartered in all cities, pollution by population is halved

GATT - I suppose this is some sort of trade globalization treaty, hmm how about +15% commerce/city (and culture) in the wealthiest civs but -15% commerce/city in civs with the most resources/luxeries in their borders.

I agree with you on Kyoto-- sort of makes sense-- Kyoto will forced reduced production to achieve reduced pollution.

I disagree on GATT-- basically all sound economists agree that free trades helps everyone. It should function sort of like "Commerce Rates Doubled" in Alpha Centauri-- except that CIV III stupidly got rid of commerce income (which should be a great way to encourage non-war making).

Here are some other UN suggestions:

"Peacekeeping Missions"-- majority vote can authorize a peace-keeping mission against a CIV. If owner of UN votes in majority, gets a certain number of UN troops to use at his command.

Potsdam Peace-Conference-- with the UN, you can conduct diplomacy with multiple Civs simultaneously-- not just one at a time. This way, Allies can agree to all call off a war at the same time.

End of Slavery-- all foreign national workers returned to their native Civ.

Recognizing New States-- by majority vote, UN can recognize "independance" of cities formerly controlled by destroyed Civs.-- provided that that Civ has not completely assimilated. So if the Russians destroyed the English and took 3 English cities, and the English have yet to assimilate, the UN can recognize English Independance, restoring English control to those cities.

International Patent Treaty-- all scientific knowledge discovered by 1 Civ known to ALL after 15 turns.

[Pythagoras]

Originally posted by SeferKoheleth


I agree with you on Kyoto-- sort of makes sense-- Kyoto will forced reduced production to achieve reduced pollution.

I disagree on GATT-- basically all sound economists agree that free trades helps everyone. It should function sort of like "Commerce Rates Doubled" in Alpha Centauri-- except that CIV III stupidly got rid of commerce income (which should be a great way to encourage non-war making).

Here are some other UN suggestions:

"Peacekeeping Missions"-- majority vote can authorize a peace-keeping mission against a CIV. If owner of UN votes in majority, gets a certain number of UN troops to use at his command.

Potsdam Peace-Conference-- with the UN, you can conduct diplomacy with multiple Civs simultaneously-- not just one at a time. This way, Allies can agree to all call off a war at the same time.

End of Slavery-- all foreign national workers returned to their native Civ.

Recognizing New States-- by majority vote, UN can recognize "independance" of cities formerly controlled by destroyed Civs.-- provided that that Civ has not completely assimilated. So if the Russians destroyed the English and took 3 English cities, and the English have yet to assimilate, the UN can recognize English Independance, restoring English control to those cities.

International Patent Treaty-- all scientific knowledge discovered by 1 Civ known to ALL after 15 turns.

A globalization treaty should at least affect the culture of less important civs. Not everyone agrees its a good idea, many liberal groups contend that these treaties hurt 'cheap labor' cultures by introducing western goods/values.(this is an oversimplification)

[mwaf]

regarding Kyoto

First off, it shouldn't be called Kyoto, it's should be named after a city chosen by the civ that suggested the treaty. (same goes for the Geneva convention and other treaties named after cities)

Secondly, I don't think there should be a ratio-based reduction in shiled production, instead there should be a shield limit for factories and pollution producing power plants. A civ that only uses clean energy sources should certainly not lose shields. There should even be some sort of punishment for not having mass transit in big cities. I can't quite think of a good punishment though (shield production isn't realistic since that pollution is generated by the population)


BTW, great idea this UN-fix SeferKoheleth. I like it. (hopefully so does even Firaxis)

[SofaKing]

This is a great idea. It sounds like it would function similiar to the Council in SMAC. I think the Pollution Control should keep the name Kyoto Protocol (I'm embarrassed that the US pulled out). Also, the GATT treaty should double income, but also double the amount of unhappy citizens (look at the protests at every WTO meeting).

[Iron Chancellor]

Excellent idea! Concerning the UN peacekeeping idea, though: If a majority condemns a nation, one (or more) nations could call a vote of either trade sanctions, or get a free declaration of war. Note that the peacekeeping nation would still get a diplomatic penalty to all the nations who voted against the resolution.

[Andrew_Jay]

I like the idea of a GATT making citizens unhappy as a trade off. Another idea could be a kind of better relations within the groups of nations considered wealthy and poor, but poor relations between the two groups. That doesn't sound too likely now that I've written it out, seeing how all civs are usually contenders and there aren't really a whole lot of them.
So yeah, unhappy citizens are good enough Perhaps the unhappiness could be tied to luxuries, maybe make them less effective.

Also, somekind of rules of war would be good, like said earlier, discouraging the capture and slave labour of foreigners and the razing of cities. Perhaps messages could come up (and lead to changes in the attitudes of other civs towards yours).
For example "UN disaproves of Shaka's excessive bombardment of Philidelphia" after you've killed a lot of citizens.
Or if you declare war on someone and take a city that you have no claim to "the UN does not recognise Alexander's rule over Orleans". The more cities you simply take and keep, other nations could regard you with less respect.
during peace treaties dialogue could come up in your foreign advisors little box about what the UN wants the two parties to do. It could remind you to return workers, cities, pay compensation etc. in order to maintain good standing in the international community.

[rmsharpe]

The United Nations wonder should triple corruption in the nation it's built. It'd sure as heck add realism to the game.

[Wittlich]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
The United Nations wonder should triple corruption in the nation it's built. It'd sure as heck add realism to the game.

If that were the case, no one would ever build it!

[Ijuin]

Originally posted by Pythagoras
A basic premise of the UN is that gaining land via conquest is wrong.

I agree with you but it seems that lots of your suggestions would be beneficial to everyone with no drawbacks. How about adding some drawbacks like:

Kyoto Treaty - Production is quartered in all cities, pollution by population is halved

a 75% reduction in production is too much a penalty. How about each civ must pay a 1 gold/turn penalty for each unit of pollution they generate above a certain quantity decided by UN Vote? (this is similar to the penelties levied by the actual Kyoto treaty)

GATT - I suppose this is some sort of trade globalization treaty, hmm how about +15% commerce/city (and culture) in the wealthiest civs but -15% commerce/city in civs with the most resources/luxeries in their borders.

Since it is essentially a TRADE treaty, I would have the income you get from it dependant on what the OTHER civs are generating. For example, each turn every member would get an amount of gold equal to one percent of the Gross Global Product (for example, if all civs combined are generating 10,000 gold per turn, then each civ would get 100 per turn from the agreement). This prevents the largest civs from getting the lion's share of the money (which may not be realistic, but is better for play balance IMO).

How about international sanctions? In fact maybe there could be a system whereby the UN gets together and votes that all member civs should clean all pollution n terms after its produced (or a gazillion other things that could be agreed upon), maybe if that is violated international sanctions could be enforced on that civ or something.

Yes. I would like to see the following (all UN votes require at least four member nations voting):

Set/Lift Global Embargo: All member nations must embargo the target civ for 20 turns minimum.

Declare World War: All member nations must form an alliance against the target civ--obligation to remain in this alliance ends after 20 turns, after which separate peace agreements may be made.

Suspend/De-suspend member: The target nation will lose its vote in the UN until the suspension is lifted or 20 turns have expired. There must always be least three non-suspended members at all time to prevent the tactic of suspending all the other members to eliminate opponents.

I also like the Geneva Convention idea, whereby razing of cities and capture of workers is prohibited (instead of being captured, workers would automatically be sent to their civ's capital if attacked).

[civman2000]

declare world war ! Just doesnt sound right....

[Switch]

I agree with a lot of this. However, I don't think the names should be used. How about instead of Kyoto Protocol, it's called something generic, that would work on any planet that spoke english, like anti-pollution protocal, except not so crappy sounding; instead of Geneva convention, it could be called War-time humanitarianism; etc.

Why do I say this? 'Cause Civ3 wasn't made to copy our history, but to allow us to create our own. Using the same names as in real life (when related to a city, or any location) would go against that. I say when related to a city or location because otherwise we'd have to change the name of the UN or most other wonders and such.

[Andrew_Jay]

Treaties could just be named after a city in the empire of the civ who proposes it. I think in Civ2 when all the other civs would sign agreements about containing your agression, those agreements would be named after a city.