The 8th civ spot- a study of the evidence

[monkspider]

Maybe, I was thinking that with all the Euro civs they could be divided even further. But who knows. Hopefully the editor will have the ability to add new culture groups.

[Jon Shafer]

I still think the Hwacha image is pretty conclusive. All the other pictures of units were of UUs for other civs, why not that one as well? As everyone has said, anything is possible at this point, I just feel that an actual picture of something, released by Firaxis is very important to consider.

[Panag]

hi ,

more civs = more map , .........that is the way it should be , ......

have a nice day

[monkspider]

BTW, Panag, I am working on enlarging the "Heb" photo a little bit without distorting it too badly. I should hopefully have it finished later today.

[Jon Shafer]

20:55:13 [monkspider] Firaxis: Can you comment whether or not the Hwacha unit featured in several screenshots is part of the feudal japan theme pack?

20:55:23 [JeffreyMorrisFIRAXIS] Monk: It is not.

Hmmmmm... I think we have a winner!

[monkspider]

It ain't over yet!

00:32:18 [monkspider] Firaxis: One last question regarding the hwacha , Is it an Artillery-type unit?

00:32:25 [MikeBreitkreutzFIRAXIS] yes

This makes it hard to see the hwacha as a UU, as there is no known way for a artillery UU to be implemented (what would constitute the victory needed for a golden age, etc) It could be possible that the Hwacha is a unit usable by all between catapult and cannon and Firaxis just wanted to give it a "oriental" sounding name.

This combined with the fact Firaxis refuses to confirm any civ other than Mongols or Spanish means we are far from having an exact answer to the civs which appear in the game.

It is true though that the case for Korea has been strengthened.

[monkspider]

More just in!
[cyclotron7] Somebody above mentioned the Hwacha,and Mike said it is an artillery unit. If so, isn't it a pretty poor unit because of its inability to "win" combat, thus causing a GA? (Sorry if this has been answered before).
00:39:38 [MikeBreitkreutzFIRAXIS] cyclo: Maybe.... But there are other ways of getting a GA.
[cyclotron7] Mike: I know, but doesn't that put the Koreans at a distinct disadvatage?
00:40:52 [MikeBreitkreutzFIRAXIS] Would you say the Americans are at a disadvantage because the F-15 comes so late in the game?
00:41:44 [cyclotron7] MIKE: Well, at least the F-16 can kill fighters...
MikeBreitkreutzFIRAXIS] cyclo: I was just asking. I think it is kind of weak, myself. But I'm no designer. And I think the Hwacha is in much better shape... but then I know a few things about it that you don't .

I think it's almost safe to say the Koreans are in!

[Jon Shafer]

Like I said, I think we have a winner. Congrats to Korea.

[Solver]

Koreans are in, 100%. Firaxis confirmed.

However... I worked on the Heb photo, and it's *obvious* that the letters are there.

Here's what I think: Arabs and Ottomans haven't been confirmed. I believe the leader we've seen is a Turk one, maybe Ottoman, but this still leaves the Hebrews a place if there are no Arabs. Or maybe that leader is Arab, for political corectness, but doesn't look too historic then.

[Panag]

hi ,

maybe the "HEB" , is something to trow us of balance , .....

have a nice day

[JtheJackal]

Im so relieved. After all that I said saying the Koreans will be in, they actually are. I still wish they had the Incas though.

[kring]

Having read the 9 page chat log, I am not convinced the Koreans are in. Flawed logic would say yes, but the key is that the Firaxians never admitted the Koreans were in; nor did they admit the Hwacha was a UU. I am not saying they are not in; I just don't believe the current evidence points conclusively to them being in.

[cyclotron7] Somebody above mentioned the Hwacha,and Mike said it is an artillery unit. If so, isn't it a pretty poor unit because of its inability to "win" combat, thus causing a GA? (Sorry if this has been answered before).
00:39:38 [MikeBreitkreutzFIRAXIS] cyclo: Maybe.... But there are other ways of getting a GA. [cyclotron7] Mike: I know, but doesn't that put the Koreans at a distinct disadvatage?
00:40:52 [MikeBreitkreutzFIRAXIS] Would you say the Americans are at a disadvantage because the F-15 comes so late in the game?

Here, Mike did not confirm it was a UU; what he did was ask another question to throw people off track. Nor did he confirm the Koreans are in during his other response; he again threw people off by making a comment about how to get a GA another way. The thing to remember is that IF Koreans are in, have the Hwacha as a UU, then it would be unbalancing if their UU couldn't start a UU when all the other current UUs can. The Koreans could still be in, with the Hwacha as another arty unit available to all, if you have the necessary resource(s). The last could also be true, without the Koreans being in: a new arty unit.

I did try something today. I made Cannons and Catapults Start GA; Catapults were kept nonlethal; Cannons were made land lethal. Then I put both in a scenario as starting units, since I didn't want to wait that long to test the theory. Results:

Non lethal Catapults damaged several units, but no GA. Cannons destroyed a Babylonian Warrior; GA started. So, if Koreans are in and the Hwacha is a UU, then Lethal Bombardment would have to be enabled for it to cause a GA, as the game currently works.

The beta testers will know soon enough, but they won't be able to tell us. This sounds like it may be one of the last civs revealed since it is such a hot topic; what bettter marketing ploy than to withhold it until last?

According to the chat, some of the early units for Civ 3 didn't make the cut into the final product.

[monkspider]

That's some pretty interesting thinking my fellow Wichitan

[kring]

That's probably because semantics is one of my hobbies. I find it interesting to hear how a person says something; esp. if they really meant something totally different. A lot of what was said/not said is to throw us off whether or not Korea is/isn't in.

The playtesters will know soon enough; of course, they won't tell.

I don't know if Korea will/won't be in. Since they have already decided, anything I do won't change the outcome of in/out for Korea. I don't have a preference.

[Dinner]

The Koreans invented a number of things, including the first moveable-type printing press and in fact there is currently a movement to revise history books which say that Guttenberg was it's inventor.

The Koreans did not invent movable type printing. Currently there is an argument in academic circles whither China or Korea where the first to invent wood block printing in the 8th century. Wood block printing differs from Guttenburg's movable type in that each page had to be carved out of a piece of wood, thus it could only be used to print a single page over and over,
while Gutenburg's movable type could be rearranged into which ever order the author wished.

For more info please read any of the following books:

Jeon, Sang-woon
509.519 C548 S
Science and Technology in Korea: Traditional Instruments and Techniques
Comprehensive survey of Korean science including information and illustrations on printing technology, moving machines and astronomical instruments.
(MIT Press, 1974)

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Korea's Early Printing Culture
686.2095 K
Lavishly illustrated chronicle of printing from 8th Century woodblock printing to 17th Century wooden-type typography.
(The Organizing Committee for 1993 Year of the Book and Korean Publishers' Association, 1993)

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McMurtrie, Douglas C.
655.1 M16 B
The Book: The Story of Bookmaking and Printing
Detailed story od printing and bookmaking from paleolithic cave dwellers to the mechanical processes of early 20th Century press work.
(Oxford University Press, 1962)

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Needham, Joseph
951 N
Science and Civilization in China, v.5, pt.1: Paper and Printing, by Tsien Tsuen-hsuin
Scholarly history of CHinese technology with a detailed section on printing in CHina and Korea, and an extensive bibliography.
(Cambridge University Press, 1985)

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Temple, Robert
R509.51 T
The Genius of China: 3000 Years of Science, Discovery and Invention
Elaborate survey of CHinese science and technology, including an interesting chapter on the rise of printing from the 8th to 11th Centuries with phtographs of surviving documents.
(Simon & Schuster, 1986)