Similiar Civs?

[KaiserIsak]

That printing press does not prove that korea should be in. Theres load of inventions that have been important for the world, and all the civs that have created them can not be in. The lydians can not, and the koreans can not.

[Q Classic]

spicytimothy:

Although unlike Poland it's beeb independent for an extremely long time (both China and Japan has numerous attempts to invade, but failed most of the time...) it has no unique culture. Period. The Korean language u see today is a relatively new usage bud off from Chinese. They hv been using Chinese characters of thousands of years. They fashion, language, economy, arcitechture, and basically culture in general is very Chinese. Recent years, there hv been more Japanese influence, but Japanese bud off from the Chinese n e ways...

i hate to tell you this, but just because a language shares certain words, it doesn't mean that it's an offshoot of one. we have a lot of mexican, japanese, and latin words in english. does this mean that english is an offshoot of spanish-mexico, or japanese? the japanese use a lot of english words. does this mean that their language comes from english?
furthermore, every single linguist will point to the fact that if you go by language families, korean and chinese are not related. mandarin chinese is a shining example of the sino-tibetan language family, whereas the korean language has a tenuous link at best to the ural-altaic branch. two entirely different language families, both also completely unrelated to the indo-european language family.
so, no, the korean language is not a "bud" off of the chinese language.
if you're speaking about the written language, even that is not completely true. although you are correct in that the koreans used chinese characters for a long time, so did the japanese. but the written language does NOT define the spoken language. if anything, it is the other way around. for example: vietnamese uses the latin alphabet, heavily modified. french uses the latin alphabet. are vietnamese and french in the same language family? no.

out of curiosity, are you well steeped in chinese or japanese culture?

continuing: with culture: often times, what can help illustrate differences in culture is food. korean food and chinese food are actually quite dissimilar. chinese food tends to have lots of sauce, while korean food tends to not have much sauce, but much spice instead. traditional drumming by farmers, or [i]poongmul[i], is also uniquely korean, without chinese precedent. furthermore, styles of dress are different; for instance, the high collars worn by chinese women in traditional dress are not present in korean traditional dress.
and as for recent influences from japan, that's also not quite true. although you are correct in that japan has influenced korean in the 20th century, it has only managed to do so economically by giving skorea an example to follow for fast industrialization. during the occupation between 1910-1945, the japanese sought to erase korean culture, but failed to do so; it merely managed to make korea much stronger culturally.

again, out of curiosity, how knowledgable are you about anthropological and cultural studies and strains of thought?

Quote form article:"Koreans have great concern for education, and illiteracy is almost non-existent." Hello??? North Korea??

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/kn.html

actually, the most recent statistics from north korea show that the north koreans have an extremely high literacy rate.
furthermore, let's dispel a certain misunderstanding about the state of the north korean famine. there seems to be a general belief that north korea is a backwards nation, industrially and economically.
that's not quite true.
imagine a complete industrial collapse, say, in america. all the power plants shut down because there's no way to keep them running. soon after, industrial plants fail because there's no power. because there are no industrial plants making fertilizer, farmers can't grow crops. because farmers can't grow crops, people starve. because people starve, no other sector of the economy can function.
THAT's what happened in north korea; until the mid-70s, north korea was either more industrialized or on par with south korea. if they hadn't decided to become so isolationist, it might be believable that we'd have another chinese "communist" type of government in place there instead.

"Taekwondo" is a Chinese word.

how do you know this? can i have some proof? etymology is a tricky thing, and as far as i can tell, it has no chinese origin, word-wise.
furthermore, if you look at the martial arts styles: taekwondo tends to utilize a lot of kicks; most chinese martial arts uses fists and speed. kungfu in particular. although martial arts is not a korean invention, per se, this form of it is. but, i suppose, using your arguments, you could say the ps2 was not a japanese invention, seeing as the entire field of computers and computer gaming can pretty much be traced back to the united states...

"Will Co-host the 2002 World Cup with Japan." How many countries had hosted World Cup b4???

none in asia. mostly has been hosted in europe. furthermore, originally FIFAWC2002 was set to be hosted only in korea; it's through some negotiation that japan also got to host it.

As for the places that the threat introduced, I don't see how they protrait the uniqueness of Korea. a canon with Chinese characters, temples and statues that represents Buddhism more than Korea, a building with the longest floor space (??) a diary that was written on a daily basis for a long time... How do they prove Korea as a unique historically and culturally rich civilization?

religious-wise... how does the predominance of latin writings during the middle ages prove that the european countries are any different from one another? or the fact that during the renaissance, most artists followed the a similar school of art? or that most european architecture looks the same? i mean, gothic architecture all throughout most of europe for cathederals. or the fact that most modern architecture? between the united states and europe, a lot of it looks the same. english tends to be the lingua fraca there. if not english, then french, or german. christianity is still the dominant religion in europe and north america. how does this prove that american culture is different from english, french, and german culture?

As for the inventions, I doubt that they invented them. Especially Printing machine thingy and the water clock... Chinese is long credited for inventing paper and the printing process. And water clocks are invented separately by many many civs.

printing technology was invented by korea. not china, although china did develop it soon after. ironclad ships were also invented by korea. the kobukson turtle ships used to drive back hideyoshi's invasion were ironclad ships of the likes the world had never seen. the american ironclads, developed some three to four hundred years later were invented completely separately by the americans, who had little, if any knowledge of korea; but does this detract from the simple fact that the koreans invented it first? if a tree falls in the forest, and nobody hears it, it still falls, does it not?

As for the foreign currency reserves and import/export market, these only proves the economy of Korea (or more specifically South Korea) (BTW, I find it hard to believe that Korea is the 13th largest country... There's no Korea! Only South Korea and North Korea!)

one thing you should be aware of, when you look at published works in academia, specifically economics and politics. when just the term "korea" is used, especially after 1970, it invariably refers to south korea, the democratic nation. believe it--south korea is the 13th largest country in terms of its economy. quite impressive for a nation the size of indiana, with only 44 million people and under the constant threat of a million-man army just a few miles to the north of its capital.

As for the language, as recent as 1999 South Korean government passed a bill to restart the use of Chinese characters, for they believe is more sophisticated...

you, again, misunderstand. this bill is to only legalize a practice common to most of east asia: the usage of chinese characters to convey certain concepts and ideas in a very compact way. i don't know how many official korean government documents you've read since 1999, but every one i've seen, from the economic ministries to the cultural ministries, the text is written almost entirely in korean text, in korean characters. you may also have been the victim of poor translation, if you got that from a korean website; koreans, japanese, and most of the rest of the world do not believe that chinese characters are more sophisticated, but rather, more complicated... especially since the words, in korean, are actually differentiated only by context.
the word, meaning both sophisticated and complicated, is (romanized) bokchap.

i feel very misunderstood and misquoted that I hate Koreans and Asian culture in general when I am not.

i believe that you're not hateful towards the koreans. unfortunately, the fact of the matter remains... you didn't pick your words very well, and so came across that way. remember-- when you're on forums, in which people have only textual information to go on, a dismissive attitude coupled with poor word choices can go a long way to creating a mental portrait of you.

[Scottskofski]

Poland

About Poland: Poland is one of the Oldest Independant European Nations(If you disregard the Partitions). The traditional Slavic homeland is in Modern Day Poland between Oder and Vistula Rivers. It became a "Kingdom" on the European scale in 966 and rose to a major power cometing even with the Holy Roman Empire. It remained a power for a few years until it was broken up by one kings sons. The country broke into many city-states and became weak. However it rebounded and again united. Tuetonic Order encroaching on its lands in 1300's-1400's lead to a union with its Eastern Neighbor. Grand Duchy of Lithuania. The Grand Duchy and Poland defeated the Tuetons inthe battle of Grunwald allowing the "Golden Age" of Lithuania where the Jegellonian Dynasty spread to over 50% of Europe. In the 1500's Poland started to come to power and soon had a big well trained advanced army. Lithuania was being challenged by the Muscovytes and A true Union with Poland was signed in 1560's. The Union combined both countries into one. So became the huge spread of Polish Culture and language. Poland was the largest, most dempcratic, and most powerfull country in Europe. Polish military severly defeated Muscovytes and some other wars. Early 1600's was a good time. Sweden had been uterly defeated and Humiliated. The Muscovyte throne was taken(Breifly) by Poland but the King of Poland refused to let his son Wladyslaw IV(Was to be Czar of Moscow) to convert to orthodoxy. The small Polish garrison of 3,000 Held off the Russians but was forced to retreat. 1630's Gustav Adolfus invaded a Undefended Northern Poland. Soon Polish army arrived and fought him to a stalemate, the Polish Parliament caved in and gave him some towns in the North. 1638 began the "10 years golden peace" this peace was a lull before the storm. Poland had few internal problems and a war with Crimean Khanite. Cossacks Rebel in todays Ukraine and 3 wars where fought, Ukrainians and Tartar Allys(Later Muscovyte Allys) winning a few battle, Poland winning a few. Polish Government came to a decay allowing for the mass bribery of officials. The Polish system of government no longer worked but Poland was to immersed in war for reforms. 1650's Sweden invades a Undefended Northern Poland and Lithuania joins Swedes. Transylvania, Cossacks, Russia, Brandenburg, Prussia, Moldavia, and a few other countries invade at same time. Thus the Deluge starts. It seemed like Poland was lost but they defeated the Swedes and evicted them. Invaded Brandenburg and Transylvania. Tartar allys and Poles fight off invaders and destroy 3 Russian Armies. However internal strife continues and Lubomirski's Army Rebells. Poland temporarilly Ceseeds Ukraine to Russia. Meaning to get affairs in order to take it back. However Ottoman Empire invades from the south but are defeated 3 times by Jan Sobieski Poland and Turkey now stop becomming enemies. Soon the Ottomans are at Vienna 1683. Poland Defeats the Ottomans there and pursues into Moldavia. Jan Sobieski dies and Elections held. Jan's son(leading contender to be elected king) is Detained by Saxon Army. French Duke of Conte Elected king. However Augustus the Strong of Saxony heads of Conte's boat and tells him to go home. Augustus Rises to throne. So begins the "Reign of Anarcy". Augustus plans with Peter of Russia for war against Sweden. Poland does not join the great Northern War. Swedish Troops invade into Poland, Poland declares war too little too late and the Governor of Livonia is placed on Polish Throne. Sweden is defeated in Great Northern War and Augustus Regains throne. Augustus dies and the King the Swedes put in place is elected King. This is not liked by Russia or Saxony. Poland is invaded by both nations starting "War for Polish Succession". Augustus's son Augustus the 2nd claims the throne, Supported by Russian troops. The Reign of the Saxon kings is known as the worst period in our history. Augustus Poniatowski elected king after Augustus 2nd. Poniatowski fell madly in love with Catherine of Russia and she secured his Kingship(by bribery). Parliament sessions are held but money flows in favor of either Russia, Prussia, or Austria, and to a lesser extent France, Ottomans, Sweden. Poland no longer in control of Government. People get fed up, Confederation of Bar established Ottoman Empire on request of Confederation Declares war on Russia. With no cannon Confederates result to Guerrilla Tactics. Effective resistance put up untill 1st Partition in 1772. The Leader of Confederation Casimir Pulaski goes to America and is the "Father of American Cavalry" Coins Polish phrase "For your freedom and ours". Thaddeus Koscuiszko as well goes to America and wins fame. War with Russia. All the pitched battles won by Poland but Poniatowski caves and gives into Russia. Koscuiszko comes back to Poland in 1790's. Granted control of the Military. Old friend Jozef Poniatowski(King's Nephew) returns from Austria and is another General. A few Pitched Battles won against Russia, but soon Intervention of Prussia and Austria. Polish troops occupy all of 1772 Borders but are beat back by the 3 invaders. Koscuiszko captured by Russians. Army dispireted. What ever was left of the Army is Crushed and all killed by Suvurov outside Warsaw. Koscuiszko let out of Prison moves to France. Poland disapears from the map. Not due to being invaded but due to Austria, Prussia, and Russia buying the land from Magnates who control Poland. Rise of Napoleon see's Poland renergized. Polish Cavalry quickly recognised again the best in the world. Poniatowski gains recognition. And stories of Polish valour give Poles new reasons to join Napoleon. Polish Amry and Men are by far 2nd Largest in the "Empire" after France. Napoleon loved Polish Ulans and Soon all of Europe copied their Uniform and style. "800 Poles will retain 8,000 of the Enemy"- Napoleon at Liepzig. Polish Gaurdsmen saved Napoleons life in the Retreat from Russia. Poles first into Russia and last out loosing no banners to the enemy. In spain the Guerilla's gained big respect for Vistula Legion and calling them "The Polish Devils", and "Horsebreakers from hell". After Napoleons defeat at Waterloo he selected Only Polish Guardsmen to serve as his guard. Poles now fight for anyone looking for Freedom. Fought in Magyar uprising in Austrian Empire, Italian Unification, France several times, America in Civil war(on both sides) 1830 Polish Rebellion. Defeats Russian Armies, Too much rivialry in Polish Ranks to be fully successfull and Prussian armies started Operating in the East. 1840's 2 more rebellions on Smaller scale. Crimean War, Many Ottoman Generals and Army where Polish. Rebellion 1863 too small to do real damage and Bismark sent Prussians to help Russians. WW1 Poland fights for Austria, Russia, Germany, and France. Jozef Pilsudski commands most notable Polish Legions fighting not so much with Austrians as Against Russians. 1917 Russia surrenders. Kaiser wishs to move Pilsudski's men to Western Front. Pilsudski refuses. More Polish legions formed in France. 1918 Poland gains independance. Though Wars break out against, Lithuania, Ukraine, and Bolshevik Russia. Poland presurred by West to Ally with Denikin and "Whites" Pilsudski signs secret Truce with Lenin hoping "Red" and "White" would annihilate Each other. "I will not help any Russian red or white."- J Pilsudski. Trotsky defeats Whites in 1919 and The Soviet divisions on Polish border go from 4 to 20. Pilsudski allys with Ukrainians. Plunge into Kiev. Kiev taken and held for a little bit. Russians push out. Early 1920's Poland slowly pushing back Russia but soon Soviets are at gates of Warsaw. Pilsudski almost annihilates Russians at Warsaw. Russians flee in quick rout. Meanwhile in Zamosc the Pride of the Red Army lays Siege. Buddennyi's "Red Cossacks" are defeated at Zamosc and uterly Annihilated. A few more battles are won by the Poles. Pilsudski wanted to go to Moscow and remove Lenin from power. Western Allys stop this and peace is signed in Riga 1921. Poland gains alot of land in the East(50% of 1772 border re-established). 1930. Pilsudski goes to France and pleads to invade Germany with France to Stop the rise of Hitler. France refuses saying their Maginot Line is inpregnable and they no longer fear Germany. 1935 Pilsudski dies Rydz-Smigley Takes over all of Pilsudski's advanced Cavalry tactics(Much similar to blitzkrieg) replaced with WW1 tactics. 1938 Tension increasing with Germany. 1939 Poland invaded by Germans. Poles hold out. Many myths come from the Campaign. Polish Cavalry charges against tanks, Airforce destroyed on Ground, all of which is false. Polish Cavalry had more then enough Anti-Tank weapons and destroyed many tanks. 2 weeks after German invasion Soviets invade. Poland's hopes of Defending south Eastern Poland Shattered. Much army escapes into Romania to meet up in France. General Sikorski named Prime Minister of Government in Exile. Poles fight from 1st day to the last on all fronts in Europe and Africa. by the end of the war poles have 5th Largest army in Europe. Polish contributions to WW2. Cracked Enigma Code box, Stole V1 and V2 Rockets, Shot down 12% of aircraft over Britain, had flown a total of 86,527 Soties, lost 1669 Men, shot down over 500 German Aircraft and 190 V1 Rockets. Polish Navy took part in 665 Operations at sea sinking the first German ship of the War, and also helping in D-Day landings. Polish forces are the only nation with the distinction of fighting on all fronts in Europe and Africa in the war In fact they have the distinction of being the only nation to fight on every front in the War. In 1940 they fought in France, in the Norwegian campaign they earned a reputation for bravery at Narvik, and in Africa the Carpathian Brigade fought at Tobruk. When the Soviet Union was attacked by Germany, in June 1941, Polish POWs were released from prison camps and set up an army headed by General Anders. Many civilians were taken under the protection of this army which was allowed to make its way to Persia (modern-day Iran) and then on to Egypt. This army, the Polish Second Corps, fought with distinction in Italy, their most notable victory being that at Monte Cassino, in May 1944, and which opened up the road to Rome for the Allies as a whole. One of the "heroes" of the Polish Second Corps was Wojtek, a brown bear adopted in Iran as their mascot; at Monte Cassino Wojtek actually helped in the fighting by carrying ammunition for the guns. He died, famous and well-loved, in Edinburgh Zoo in 1964, aged 22. All the Polish forces took part in the Allied invasion of Europe and liberation of France, playing a particularly crucial role in the significant Battle of the Falaise Gap. The Polish Parachute Brigade took part in the disastrous Battle of Arnhem in Holland. In 1945, the Poles captured the German port of Wilhelmshaven. In 1943 a division of Polish soldiers was formed in Russia under Soviet control and fought on the Eastern Front. They fought loyally alongside the Soviet troops, despite the suffering they had experienced in Soviet hands, and they distinguished themselves in breaking through the last German lines of defence, the "Pomeranian Rampart", in the fighting in Saxony and in the capture of Berlin and took the Riechstag building. The "Home Army", under the command of General Stefan Roweki (code-named "Grot"), and after his capture in 1943 (he was later murdered), by General Tadeusz Komorowski (code-named "Bor"), fought a very varied war; at times in open combat in brigade or division strength, at times involved in sabotage, often acting as execution squads eliminating German officials, and often fighting a psychological campaign against German military and civilians. It was a costly war since the Germans always took reprisals. The crime of Katyn(20,000 Officers shot in the back by Soviets) was discovered in 1943 and created a rift in Polish-Soviet relations. From now on the Home Army was attacked by Soviet propaganda as collaborating with the Germans and being called on to rise against the Germans once the Red Army reached the outskirts of Warsaw. After the 2nd World war Poland was left behind Iron Curtain. After discovering that they had been cheated of some of their wages, 15000 workers of the Cegielski and Stalin works demonstrated in 1956, and, when attacked, rioted. These were the Poznan riots which lead to "The Polish October" when Stalinism was overthrown. Gomulka managed to persuade Khrushchev, the Soviet Premier, that he could control the situation, and so Soviet troops which were on stand by were not used. Gomulka returned to power and a new, more independent relationship with the USSR was established. A sudden increase in the price of food in December 1970 led to riots in the Baltic cities; Gdansk, Gdynia and Szczecin, which were repressed with great bloodshed. The fighting spread and led to the replacement of Gomulka by Edward Gierek, who managed to calm down the situation by preventing the price rises and promising reforms. A policy of rapid industrialisation, based on Western imports and credits (a policy which was to bankrupt Poland), and an artificial rising of living standards began.
To ease the foreign debt, by 1976 Gierek had to take steps. He increased, amongst others, the price of "luxury" consumer goods, and in June, a 60% increase in food prices. Violent strikes in Warsaw and Radom led to a cancellation of the price increases, but also led to repression by the Citizens' Militia (ZOMO) and severe sentences. Opposition groups were set up, like KOR (Committee for the Defence of the Workers). The economy "overheated" and led to a period of acute
consumer shortages, especially meat, and a soaring foreign debt.
In October 1978, Karol Wojtyla, Cardinal of Krakow, was elected Pope. The Polish sense of "destiny" began to surface. In June, 1979, Pope John Paul II visited Poland at a time when the economic crisis was deepening. Fresh price rises in July 1980 touched off nation wide strikes. In August they reached the Lenin Shipyard, Gdansk, where Lech Walesa became leader. At the end
of August the Gdansk Agreement created Solidarity as an independent, self managing trade union. On December 13, 1981, General Jaruzelski, prime minister, minister of defence and first secretary of PZPR, declared a state of martial law and suspended
Solidarity. Gradually, as the country's political and economic life returned to normal, martial law was lifted (July 1983). From 1986 onwards, there was great discussion as to the way the country could develop which led, in 1988, to a referendum and fresh elections which opened the way to the massive changes of 1989
and the return of Democracy.
In December 1990, Lech Walesa was sworn in as the first non Communist Polish President since WW2.

Polish Cultural and Langauge spread: Polish culture and langauge has spread to most of the areas inhabited today by Slavic peoples. Langauge still exists in large in contries such as Slovakia, Lithuania, Latvia, Byleruss, Ukraine, Parts of Russia, Parts of Czech Republic. Polish military culture spread heavily into Prussia(Latter Germany) where many of the same customs where observed. Polish "Sarmatianism" as well spread to areas of the Former Commonwealth and Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovikia, Romania, Russia.

Polands problems with their neighbors in the past have had less to do with their strength and more to do with Polish internal Problems. Poland is situated in a bad location with no physical eastern or western border which has lead to numerous conflicts with germany and russia. Poland in the past with internal problems and government corruption.

This is a consise version of Polish history. Hope you may have learned something.

[spicytimothy]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
spicytimothy:



i hate to tell you this, but just because a language shares certain words, it doesn't mean that it's an offshoot of one. we have a lot of mexican, japanese, and latin words in english. does this mean that english is an offshoot of spanish-mexico, or japanese? the japanese use a lot of english words. does this mean that their language comes from english?
furthermore, every single linguist will point to the fact that if you go by language families, korean and chinese are not related. mandarin chinese is a shining example of the sino-tibetan language family, whereas the korean language has a tenuous link at best to the ural-altaic branch. two entirely different language families, both also completely unrelated to the indo-european language family.
so, no, the korean language is not a "bud" off of the chinese language.
if you're speaking about the written language, even that is not completely true. although you are correct in that the koreans used chinese characters for a long time, so did the japanese. but the written language does NOT define the spoken language. if anything, it is the other way around. for example: vietnamese uses the latin alphabet, heavily modified. french uses the latin alphabet. are vietnamese and french in the same language family? no.

out of curiosity, are you well steeped in chinese or japanese culture?

continuing: with culture: often times, what can help illustrate differences in culture is food. korean food and chinese food are actually quite dissimilar. chinese food tends to have lots of sauce, while korean food tends to not have much sauce, but much spice instead. traditional drumming by farmers, or [i]poongmul[i], is also uniquely korean, without chinese precedent. furthermore, styles of dress are different; for instance, the high collars worn by chinese women in traditional dress are not present in korean traditional dress.
and as for recent influences from japan, that's also not quite true. although you are correct in that japan has influenced korean in the 20th century, it has only managed to do so economically by giving skorea an example to follow for fast industrialization. during the occupation between 1910-1945, the japanese sought to erase korean culture, but failed to do so; it merely managed to make korea much stronger culturally.

again, out of curiosity, how knowledgable are you about anthropological and cultural studies and strains of thought?




http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/kn.html

actually, the most recent statistics from north korea show that the north koreans have an extremely high literacy rate.
furthermore, let's dispel a certain misunderstanding about the state of the north korean famine. there seems to be a general belief that north korea is a backwards nation, industrially and economically.
that's not quite true.
imagine a complete industrial collapse, say, in america. all the power plants shut down because there's no way to keep them running. soon after, industrial plants fail because there's no power. because there are no industrial plants making fertilizer, farmers can't grow crops. because farmers can't grow crops, people starve. because people starve, no other sector of the economy can function.
THAT's what happened in north korea; until the mid-70s, north korea was either more industrialized or on par with south korea. if they hadn't decided to become so isolationist, it might be believable that we'd have another chinese "communist" type of government in place there instead.


how do you know this? can i have some proof? etymology is a tricky thing, and as far as i can tell, it has no chinese origin, word-wise.
furthermore, if you look at the martial arts styles: taekwondo tends to utilize a lot of kicks; most chinese martial arts uses fists and speed. kungfu in particular. although martial arts is not a korean invention, per se, this form of it is. but, i suppose, using your arguments, you could say the ps2 was not a japanese invention, seeing as the entire field of computers and computer gaming can pretty much be traced back to the united states...


none in asia. mostly has been hosted in europe. furthermore, originally FIFAWC2002 was set to be hosted only in korea; it's through some negotiation that japan also got to host it.


religious-wise... how does the predominance of latin writings during the middle ages prove that the european countries are any different from one another? or the fact that during the renaissance, most artists followed the a similar school of art? or that most european architecture looks the same? i mean, gothic architecture all throughout most of europe for cathederals. or the fact that most modern architecture? between the united states and europe, a lot of it looks the same. english tends to be the lingua fraca there. if not english, then french, or german. christianity is still the dominant religion in europe and north america. how does this prove that american culture is different from english, french, and german culture?


printing technology was invented by korea. not china, although china did develop it soon after. ironclad ships were also invented by korea. the kobukson turtle ships used to drive back hideyoshi's invasion were ironclad ships of the likes the world had never seen. the american ironclads, developed some three to four hundred years later were invented completely separately by the americans, who had little, if any knowledge of korea; but does this detract from the simple fact that the koreans invented it first? if a tree falls in the forest, and nobody hears it, it still falls, does it not?


one thing you should be aware of, when you look at published works in academia, specifically economics and politics. when just the term "korea" is used, especially after 1970, it invariably refers to south korea, the democratic nation. believe it--south korea is the 13th largest country in terms of its economy. quite impressive for a nation the size of indiana, with only 44 million people and under the constant threat of a million-man army just a few miles to the north of its capital.


you, again, misunderstand. this bill is to only legalize a practice common to most of east asia: the usage of chinese characters to convey certain concepts and ideas in a very compact way. i don't know how many official korean government documents you've read since 1999, but every one i've seen, from the economic ministries to the cultural ministries, the text is written almost entirely in korean text, in korean characters. you may also have been the victim of poor translation, if you got that from a korean website; koreans, japanese, and most of the rest of the world do not believe that chinese characters are more sophisticated, but rather, more complicated... especially since the words, in korean, are actually differentiated only by context.
the word, meaning both sophisticated and complicated, is (romanized) bokchap.


i believe that you're not hateful towards the koreans. unfortunately, the fact of the matter remains... you didn't pick your words very well, and so came across that way. remember-- when you're on forums, in which people have only textual information to go on, a dismissive attitude coupled with poor word choices can go a long way to creating a mental portrait of you.

Pls read my response to other similar comments. I believe i hv already addressed them quite throughly and don't wanna type it all over again. Read them first. They're on Pg. 3 on this threat. Thank you.

spicytimothy

[Veracitas]

Re: Poland

Originally posted by Scottskofski
About Poland: Poland is one of the Oldest Independant European Nations(If you disregard the Partitions). The traditional Slavic homeland is in Modern Day Poland between Oder and Vistula Rivers. It became a "Kingdom" on the European scale in 966 and rose to a major power cometing even with the Holy Roman Empire. It remained a power for a few years until it was broken up by one kings sons. The country broke into many city-states and became weak. However it rebounded and again united. Tuetonic Order encroaching on its lands in 1300's-1400's lead to a union with its Eastern Neighbor. Grand Duchy of Lithuania. The Grand Duchy and Poland defeated the Tuetons inthe battle of Grunwald allowing the "Golden Age" of Lithuania where the Jegellonian Dynasty spread to over 50% of Europe. In the 1500's Poland started to come to power and soon had a big well trained advanced army. Lithuania was being challenged by the Muscovytes and A true Union with Poland was signed in 1560's. The Union combined both countries into one. So became the huge spread of Polish Culture and language. Poland was the largest, most dempcratic, and most powerfull country in Europe. Polish military severly defeated Muscovytes and some other wars. Early 1600's was a good time. Sweden had been uterly defeated and Humiliated. The Muscovyte throne was taken(Breifly) by Poland but the King of Poland refused to let his son Wladyslaw IV(Was to be Czar of Moscow) to convert to orthodoxy. The small Polish garrison of 3,000 Held off the Russians but was forced to retreat. 1630's Gustav Adolfus invaded a Undefended Northern Poland. Soon Polish army arrived and fought him to a stalemate, the Polish Parliament caved in and gave him some towns in the North. 1638 began the "10 years golden peace" this peace was a lull before the storm. Poland had few internal problems and a war with Crimean Khanite. Cossacks Rebel in todays Ukraine and 3 wars where fought, Ukrainians and Tartar Allys(Later Muscovyte Allys) winning a few battle, Poland winning a few. Polish Government came to a decay allowing for the mass bribery of officials. The Polish system of government no longer worked but Poland was to immersed in war for reforms. 1650's Sweden invades a Undefended Northern Poland and Lithuania joins Swedes. Transylvania, Cossacks, Russia, Brandenburg, Prussia, Moldavia, and a few other countries invade at same time. Thus the Deluge starts. It seemed like Poland was lost but they defeated the Swedes and evicted them. Invaded Brandenburg and Transylvania. Tartar allys and Poles fight off invaders and destroy 3 Russian Armies. However internal strife continues and Lubomirski's Army Rebells. Poland temporarilly Ceseeds Ukraine to Russia. Meaning to get affairs in order to take it back. However Ottoman Empire invades from the south but are defeated 3 times by Jan Sobieski Poland and Turkey now stop becomming enemies. Soon the Ottomans are at Vienna 1683. Poland Defeats the Ottomans there and pursues into Moldavia. Jan Sobieski dies and Elections held. Jan's son(leading contender to be elected king) is Detained by Saxon Army. French Duke of Conte Elected king. However Augustus the Strong of Saxony heads of Conte's boat and tells him to go home. Augustus Rises to throne. So begins the "Reign of Anarcy". Augustus plans with Peter of Russia for war against Sweden. Poland does not join the great Northern War. Swedish Troops invade into Poland, Poland declares war too little too late and the Governor of Livonia is placed on Polish Throne. Sweden is defeated in Great Northern War and Augustus Regains throne. Augustus dies and the King the Swedes put in place is elected King. This is not liked by Russia or Saxony. Poland is invaded by both nations starting "War for Polish Succession". Augustus's son Augustus the 2nd claims the throne, Supported by Russian troops. The Reign of the Saxon kings is known as the worst period in our history. Augustus Poniatowski elected king after Augustus 2nd. Poniatowski fell madly in love with Catherine of Russia and she secured his Kingship(by bribery). Parliament sessions are held but money flows in favor of either Russia, Prussia, or Austria, and to a lesser extent France, Ottomans, Sweden. Poland no longer in control of Government. People get fed up, Confederation of Bar established Ottoman Empire on request of Confederation Declares war on Russia. With no cannon Confederates result to Guerrilla Tactics. Effective resistance put up untill 1st Partition in 1772. The Leader of Confederation Casimir Pulaski goes to America and is the "Father of American Cavalry" Coins Polish phrase "For your freedom and ours". Thaddeus Koscuiszko as well goes to America and wins fame. War with Russia. All the pitched battles won by Poland but Poniatowski caves and gives into Russia. Koscuiszko comes back to Poland in 1790's. Granted control of the Military. Old friend Jozef Poniatowski(King's Nephew) returns from Austria and is another General. A few Pitched Battles won against Russia, but soon Intervention of Prussia and Austria. Polish troops occupy all of 1772 Borders but are beat back by the 3 invaders. Koscuiszko captured by Russians. Army dispireted. What ever was left of the Army is Crushed and all killed by Suvurov outside Warsaw. Koscuiszko let out of Prison moves to France. Poland disapears from the map. Not due to being invaded but due to Austria, Prussia, and Russia buying the land from Magnates who control Poland. Rise of Napoleon see's Poland renergized. Polish Cavalry quickly recognised again the best in the world. Poniatowski gains recognition. And stories of Polish valour give Poles new reasons to join Napoleon. Polish Amry and Men are by far 2nd Largest in the "Empire" after France. Napoleon loved Polish Ulans and Soon all of Europe copied their Uniform and style. "800 Poles will retain 8,000 of the Enemy"- Napoleon at Liepzig. Polish Gaurdsmen saved Napoleons life in the Retreat from Russia. Poles first into Russia and last out loosing no banners to the enemy. In spain the Guerilla's gained big respect for Vistula Legion and calling them "The Polish Devils", and "Horsebreakers from hell". After Napoleons defeat at Waterloo he selected Only Polish Guardsmen to serve as his guard. Poles now fight for anyone looking for Freedom. Fought in Magyar uprising in Austrian Empire, Italian Unification, France several times, America in Civil war(on both sides) 1830 Polish Rebellion. Defeats Russian Armies, Too much rivialry in Polish Ranks to be fully successfull and Prussian armies started Operating in the East. 1840's 2 more rebellions on Smaller scale. Crimean War, Many Ottoman Generals and Army where Polish. Rebellion 1863 too small to do real damage and Bismark sent Prussians to help Russians. WW1 Poland fights for Austria, Russia, Germany, and France. Jozef Pilsudski commands most notable Polish Legions fighting not so much with Austrians as Against Russians. 1917 Russia surrenders. Kaiser wishs to move Pilsudski's men to Western Front. Pilsudski refuses. More Polish legions formed in France. 1918 Poland gains independance. Though Wars break out against, Lithuania, Ukraine, and Bolshevik Russia. Poland presurred by West to Ally with Denikin and "Whites" Pilsudski signs secret Truce with Lenin hoping "Red" and "White" would annihilate Each other. "I will not help any Russian red or white."- J Pilsudski. Trotsky defeats Whites in 1919 and The Soviet divisions on Polish border go from 4 to 20. Pilsudski allys with Ukrainians. Plunge into Kiev. Kiev taken and held for a little bit. Russians push out. Early 1920's Poland slowly pushing back Russia but soon Soviets are at gates of Warsaw. Pilsudski almost annihilates Russians at Warsaw. Russians flee in quick rout. Meanwhile in Zamosc the Pride of the Red Army lays Siege. Buddennyi's "Red Cossacks" are defeated at Zamosc and uterly Annihilated. A few more battles are won by the Poles. Pilsudski wanted to go to Moscow and remove Lenin from power. Western Allys stop this and peace is signed in Riga 1921. Poland gains alot of land in the East(50% of 1772 border re-established). 1930. Pilsudski goes to France and pleads to invade Germany with France to Stop the rise of Hitler. France refuses saying their Maginot Line is inpregnable and they no longer fear Germany. 1935 Pilsudski dies Rydz-Smigley Takes over all of Pilsudski's advanced Cavalry tactics(Much similar to blitzkrieg) replaced with WW1 tactics. 1938 Tension increasing with Germany. 1939 Poland invaded by Germans. Poles hold out. Many myths come from the Campaign. Polish Cavalry charges against tanks, Airforce destroyed on Ground, all of which is false. Polish Cavalry had more then enough Anti-Tank weapons and destroyed many tanks. 2 weeks after German invasion Soviets invade. Poland's hopes of Defending south Eastern Poland Shattered. Much army escapes into Romania to meet up in France. General Sikorski named Prime Minister of Government in Exile. Poles fight from 1st day to the last on all fronts in Europe and Africa. by the end of the war poles have 5th Largest army in Europe. Polish contributions to WW2. Cracked Enigma Code box, Stole V1 and V2 Rockets, Shot down 12% of aircraft over Britain, had flown a total of 86,527 Soties, lost 1669 Men, shot down over 500 German Aircraft and 190 V1 Rockets. Polish Navy took part in 665 Operations at sea sinking the first German ship of the War, and also helping in D-Day landings. Polish forces are the only nation with the distinction of fighting on all fronts in Europe and Africa in the war In fact they have the distinction of being the only nation to fight on every front in the War. In 1940 they fought in France, in the Norwegian campaign they earned a reputation for bravery at Narvik, and in Africa the Carpathian Brigade fought at Tobruk. When the Soviet Union was attacked by Germany, in June 1941, Polish POWs were released from prison camps and set up an army headed by General Anders. Many civilians were taken under the protection of this army which was allowed to make its way to Persia (modern-day Iran) and then on to Egypt. This army, the Polish Second Corps, fought with distinction in Italy, their most notable victory being that at Monte Cassino, in May 1944, and which opened up the road to Rome for the Allies as a whole. One of the "heroes" of the Polish Second Corps was Wojtek, a brown bear adopted in Iran as their mascot; at Monte Cassino Wojtek actually helped in the fighting by carrying ammunition for the guns. He died, famous and well-loved, in Edinburgh Zoo in 1964, aged 22. All the Polish forces took part in the Allied invasion of Europe and liberation of France, playing a particularly crucial role in the significant Battle of the Falaise Gap. The Polish Parachute Brigade took part in the disastrous Battle of Arnhem in Holland. In 1945, the Poles captured the German port of Wilhelmshaven. In 1943 a division of Polish soldiers was formed in Russia under Soviet control and fought on the Eastern Front. They fought loyally alongside the Soviet troops, despite the suffering they had experienced in Soviet hands, and they distinguished themselves in breaking through the last German lines of defence, the "Pomeranian Rampart", in the fighting in Saxony and in the capture of Berlin and took the Riechstag building. The "Home Army", under the command of General Stefan Roweki (code-named "Grot"), and after his capture in 1943 (he was later murdered), by General Tadeusz Komorowski (code-named "Bor"), fought a very varied war; at times in open combat in brigade or division strength, at times involved in sabotage, often acting as execution squads eliminating German officials, and often fighting a psychological campaign against German military and civilians. It was a costly war since the Germans always took reprisals. The crime of Katyn(20,000 Officers shot in the back by Soviets) was discovered in 1943 and created a rift in Polish-Soviet relations. From now on the Home Army was attacked by Soviet propaganda as collaborating with the Germans and being called on to rise against the Germans once the Red Army reached the outskirts of Warsaw. After the 2nd World war Poland was left behind Iron Curtain. After discovering that they had been cheated of some of their wages, 15000 workers of the Cegielski and Stalin works demonstrated in 1956, and, when attacked, rioted. These were the Poznan riots which lead to "The Polish October" when Stalinism was overthrown. Gomulka managed to persuade Khrushchev, the Soviet Premier, that he could control the situation, and so Soviet troops which were on stand by were not used. Gomulka returned to power and a new, more independent relationship with the USSR was established. A sudden increase in the price of food in December 1970 led to riots in the Baltic cities; Gdansk, Gdynia and Szczecin, which were repressed with great bloodshed. The fighting spread and led to the replacement of Gomulka by Edward Gierek, who managed to calm down the situation by preventing the price rises and promising reforms. A policy of rapid industrialisation, based on Western imports and credits (a policy which was to bankrupt Poland), and an artificial rising of living standards began.
To ease the foreign debt, by 1976 Gierek had to take steps. He increased, amongst others, the price of "luxury" consumer goods, and in June, a 60% increase in food prices. Violent strikes in Warsaw and Radom led to a cancellation of the price increases, but also led to repression by the Citizens' Militia (ZOMO) and severe sentences. Opposition groups were set up, like KOR (Committee for the Defence of the Workers). The economy "overheated" and led to a period of acute
consumer shortages, especially meat, and a soaring foreign debt.
In October 1978, Karol Wojtyla, Cardinal of Krakow, was elected Pope. The Polish sense of "destiny" began to surface. In June, 1979, Pope John Paul II visited Poland at a time when the economic crisis was deepening. Fresh price rises in July 1980 touched off nation wide strikes. In August they reached the Lenin Shipyard, Gdansk, where Lech Walesa became leader. At the end
of August the Gdansk Agreement created Solidarity as an independent, self managing trade union. On December 13, 1981, General Jaruzelski, prime minister, minister of defence and first secretary of PZPR, declared a state of martial law and suspended
Solidarity. Gradually, as the country's political and economic life returned to normal, martial law was lifted (July 1983). From 1986 onwards, there was great discussion as to the way the country could develop which led, in 1988, to a referendum and fresh elections which opened the way to the massive changes of 1989
and the return of Democracy.
In December 1990, Lech Walesa was sworn in as the first non Communist Polish President since WW2.

Polish Cultural and Langauge spread: Polish culture and langauge has spread to most of the areas inhabited today by Slavic peoples. Langauge still exists in large in contries such as Slovakia, Lithuania, Latvia, Byleruss, Ukraine, Parts of Russia, Parts of Czech Republic. Polish military culture spread heavily into Prussia(Latter Germany) where many of the same customs where observed. Polish "Sarmatianism" as well spread to areas of the Former Commonwealth and Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovikia, Romania, Russia.

Polands problems with their neighbors in the past have had less to do with their strength and more to do with Polish internal Problems. Poland is situated in a bad location with no physical eastern or western border which has lead to numerous conflicts with germany and russia. Poland in the past with internal problems and government corruption.

This is a consise version of Polish history. Hope you may have learned something.

I'm fascinated with European history, so I know quite a bit about Poland...and thanks for the little history, but, what's your point??

[sgrig]

Re: Re: Poland

Originally posted by Veracitas


I'm fascinated with European history, so I know quite a bit about Poland...and thanks for the little history, but, what's your point??

His point is that Poland was always the best, the most powerful, surrounded by bad neighbours who always tried to destroy that glorious nation.

[Imp. Montezuma]

Re: Re: Re: Poland

Originally posted by sgrig


His point is that Poland was always the best, the most powerful, surrounded by bad neighbours who always tried to destroy that glorious nation.

ROFL-ROFL!!!

[dunk]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Dunk999 :
France is a mix of several populations : Gauls, Romans, Franks etc. It was said that people coming from the Franks formed the nobility (so I believe the Germanic people in France are in very small minority). French culture is mostly Latin : language, religion (catholicism), alphabet etc.

I thought there were more Franks than just the nobility. I'm going to go read about this eventually, someday.

[Indignator]

ZZZ

[Veracitas]

Does anyoen know where I can find hte PTW vid/trailer??