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**Andrew_Jay** · May 11, 2002, 12:49

asleepathtewheel;
you talking about the "donut" earth variety of map? I think Call to Power had that, where you basically had one "pole" which was the icy inside ring of a donut. You could walk over it in the "north" and end up in the "south".
Techs for living in Antarctica or doming cities could be good for a 5th era in the expansion.

**asleepathewheel** · May 11, 2002, 15:06

Originally posted by Andrew_Jay
asleepathtewheel;
you talking about the "donut" earth variety of map? I think Call to Power had that, where you basically had one "pole" which was the icy inside ring of a donut. You could walk over it in the "north" and end up in the "south".
Techs for living in Antarctica or doming cities could be good for a 5th era in the expansion.

no, I was actually using imprecise language. I was meaning to say that I wish you could circumnavigate the world north/south rather than just east/ west. Of course, only in the late modern age. (Unless you were the mighty Inuit/Canadian tribe which has "arctic building" as their trait, I guess, (didn't want to be too politically incorrect there))

Or you were referring to that "hollow earth" comment. I was just joking about that. I find that "theory" to be one of the more amusing ones I've read about. read about it for a good laugh.

**Panag** · May 11, 2002, 15:18

hi ,

with "Mike" on the team , i would noy be surpised we would see something like the ice in tibsun-firestorm , cracking when a ship goes true it , maybe a soldier can walk on it , but there should be someyhing like " the unit froze to death" , like in the jungle , ...

we should ask , ..

have a nice day

**Captain** · May 11, 2002, 15:20

Originally posted by asleepathewheel

Not very dedicated miners if a little something like leukemia will keep them away. That's why they get hazard pay.

you know, now that I think about it, I'm sure there will be plenty of miners willing to go there. considering that miner's have extremely dangerous occuptional hazards even in "stable" mines (gas explosions from methane pockets, suffocation, flooding, machinery accidents...) and they do it anyways, for possibly low rewards. and remote living isn't that unappealing either, they just have to import "entertainment".
plus, considering alaskan crab fisherman work ridiculous hours over freezing waters, bash chunks of ice off the ship to prevent capsizing, with dangerous machines that maim/disfigure/kill, water so cold it's death upon submersion, huge swells rocking the boat so falling off is easy... and they still do it. of course, they make anywhere around 1000 to 10 000 $US

for a week's worth of work... yeah, miners could go to alaska, if there was something worth going for.

i'm curious though, what's this north south thing? if you go further north, you don't get to the south pole, you get to the other hemisphere. if i went straight north from my home here in ontario, i'd probably end up in the ural mountains, not in antartica. how would civ keep track of this? a location +180 deg longit might work, but since all lines of longitude converge at the poles, how does that jive? (greenland looks huge on some projections and tile wise in civ, may be 40 tiles across, but in reality should be only 20 tiles...how to solve?)

**Panag** · May 11, 2002, 15:29

Originally posted by Captain
the green bits of greenland are along the coasts, it is habitable for part of the year, then you go into hibernation.
if you go further inland, it's a big glacier. glaciers are not the stuff of which we build communities on. no one lives there.

as for antarctica, there's a big sheet of ice over it. you'd have to carve through that just to get to the rocks below - and it's not quite so simple retrieving those rocks.
digging through ice is trickier than rock, as it glaciers and icefields have much less strength in comparison to the stresses on them. far, far too much instability. ever watch those ice-cavers? pure insanity. (the only thing potentially worse is underwater caving...)
an open pit would be best here, rather than tunneling, but that's a huge effort! ice is easier to break than rock, but how are you going to dig it out? you need machines, susceptible to the elements (-70 there on average), but that overcome, you still have no traction on the ice. there's enough to walk and drive, but enough to push tons of ice uphill?

and then you'd better be sure your investment is worthwhile. how do you check for minerals under 2 km thick ice? and it better be something very valuable, and very concentrated. gold is nice, but you need to process huge quantities of ore to get it. you'd need to ship the ore (wasteful) or process it on site (you want machinery to work in those conditions? lubricant freezes at that temp, metal becomes brittle, and people die quite easily). storms can shut you down, whiteouts are a death certificate, and if you survive there, the trip home could be in question.

say it's uranium, or oil. mine, miner's quarters, machinery, equipment, maintenance, replacement parts, lighting (6 mo dark), electrical, heating and power supplies, fuel supplies, ventilation system, processing plant, pipeline or transport "road", containers, container handlers, dock/harbour (that doesn't get bashed to pieces by moving ice or sheet fracture induced tsuanmi), ships, icebreakers, medical, death and disability benefits, creature comforts... transporting all this, gathering capital, financing charges and interest fees,... is it worth it?
well, at least the airfield comes free...

of course, you could nuke the place several times and see if that opens up a few craters for exploration. they'd be damn cold craters though. perhaps the radioactive trace elements might warm the miners, but the leukemia will probably keep them away.

but civ 3 volcanoes might be nice, just like in civ 2 there were some that created new islands.

hi ,

maybe more random events should be included , like global warming , an earthquake every 1000 years would be fun , ...a smoking volcano , hmm , a lot of work for the graphics , and then the lava that flows , and gets a city , .....hmmm , keep talking , ...
an other random event , forest fire , flooding , ...

have a nice day

**Zoid** · May 11, 2002, 18:02

Originally posted by cyclotron7

The vikings all died in a terrible cold winter... they ended up eating their dogs for survival, but most starved to death anyway when the crop froze.

Yes, what a green, green, prosperous land...

Hagbart´s right. Between 900 AD and 1350 AD there was the "Medieval Warm Period", the climate was much more hospitable in Greenland. But noone really knows why the norsemen disappeared. Climate change, raiding parties, plague?Check out this document for a possible explanation.

**Zoid** · May 11, 2002, 18:06

Originally posted by XarXo
About rating, was my girlfriend, we use the same Apolyton account.

But yes, she must vote using an own account. Excuse us.

OK, so that´s the explanation... Sorry for the initial threadjack

Returning to the theme: Two huge iceberg desprended form Antarctica's shelf in this year. In a medium future we probably could see trees in Antarctica's Peninsula (well, trees... No. The 6 month of night surely kill them). But this an interesting expansion area for the game, I believe.

Finally, I want add the idea that the planet's face change a lot in the 6000 years that covers the game, for example, the Caspian Sea was a lot smaller than now, the Aral Sea actually is disappearing (but this is caused by the humans). The Sahara desert was by far smaller than now in 4000 BC... Remember the refference to Greenland in my first post. The Civ III planet is DEAD, no changes, no eartquakes.... Bfff. Could be interesting that when you discover a technology you have (for example) access to a tectonic map and see the dangerous areas. In the Incan Empire earthquakes were really common, the Incan architecture is very known for its resistance in front of this kind of disasters. Also volcanoes can make strange effects like in Pompeii, or Pintaubo/Chimborazo/Mount Saint Helen... Volcanic Islands... Why not? Iceland is an entire Volcanic Isle!! ^^ Remember the submarine volcano that destroyed the Minecian/Crete culture... ALL THIS is important!!

A *live* planet is everything that I propose...

I think a live planet is an excellent idea.

Something for CivIV?

**Panag** · May 11, 2002, 18:10

Originally posted by Kamrat X
I think a live planet is an excellent idea.

Something for CivIV?

hi ,

with some luck maybe for civ3 , we should start a thread on it , ...

have a nice day

**Andrew_Jay** · May 11, 2002, 19:24

okay asleep, you meant crossing the poles on a real map. So basically you'd go to the pole and then end up at the top of the map exactly half the way across the world, as Captain described.

**Panag** · May 11, 2002, 20:15

hi ,

maybe whe should thing about a world map with the N- and S-pole on it , ...

have a nice day

**civman2000** · May 11, 2002, 22:53

Sorry for the rant

and t's nothing personal but I'm just really annoyed:

PANAG WILL YOU PLEASE STOP SAYING HAVE A NICE DAY AND JUST PUT IT IN YOUR SIG???!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Sorry

, just had to get that out of my system, nothing personal

**Captain** · May 11, 2002, 23:25

Originally posted by civman2000
Sorry for the rant

and t's nothing personal but I'm just really annoyed:

PANAG WILL YOU PLEASE STOP SAYING HAVE A NICE DAY AND JUST PUT IT IN YOUR SIG???!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Sorry

, just had to get that out of my system, nothing personal

hi

I like panag's greetings, it sounds like he really means it, makes me feel better, not sure it would have the same effect as a sig.
he's even cut down on his use of commas so that alone makes his posts readable now. some still doesn't make enough sense, but hey, lots of folks don't. at least it doesn't hurt the eyes anymore.

cheers!

**asleepathewheel** · May 12, 2002, 00:18

Originally posted by Andrew_Jay
okay asleep, you meant crossing the poles on a real map. So basically you'd go to the pole and then end up at the top of the map exactly half the way across the world, as Captain described.

Thats what I was trying to say, and yes I realize that this would be impossible (or nearly so) to implement, and further more, I don't even know if it would be a good idea. I was just talking out my arse (as usual).

**XarXo** · May 12, 2002, 00:28

It only rests me say that the game ends at 2050, we're at 2002 and the two great seas of antarctica are in a huge scale melting process. Is possible that in 2020 we can have a big territory to exploit, in the REAL world!!

Our next frontier isn't in space or sea, is in the ICE!

**asleepathewheel** · May 12, 2002, 00:32

Originally posted by XarXo
It only rests me say that the game ends at 2050, we're at 2002 and the two great seas of antarctica are in a huge scale melting process. Is possible that in 2020 we can have a big territory to exploit, in the REAL world!!

Our next frontier isn't in space or sea, is in the ICE!

Well, by 2020, there might not be that much ice to deal with, if it keeps breaking off in huge chunks like it has recently.

*note: I know this is an exaggeration (hopefully)

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