Brazil as a great civ of the *future*

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
I mean, the U.S. government has done some stupid stuff too. 12 million bucks to make a pen to write in space and the Soviets used a pencil.

I have one of those "space pens" and I resent that remark. The fact that I can write upside down comes in handy and is worth the 12 mil.

[Grrr]

Yes. Brazil will be a powerful civ. It will kill the rest of us by hacking down all the rainforests.

[siredgar]

I'd add love to add the Brazilians if a bunch of modern civs were included in the game.

For example, I would like to see (not in any order):

1. Brazilians
2. Mexicans
3. Argentines
4. Australians
5. South Africans
6. Dutch
7. Portuguese
8. Polish
9. Swedish
10. Koreans
11. Thai
12. Indonesians
13. Pakistanis
14. Saudi Arabians
15. Turkish
16. Nigerians
17. Congolese
18. Canadians
19. Vietnamese
20. Tibetans

I would think that if they added at least half a dozen of these civs, they could add the Brazilians, too.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by siredgar
I'd add love to add the Brazilians if a bunch of modern civs were included in the game.

That would be cool, to have a game of all modern civs. Would be very cool. The more civs, the merrier.

[FrostyBoy]

What I'd like to know is why must a civilization have an effect in order to be worthy of being a civilization to recreate history?

That's so...effectivist!

Really, it should be done the right way, and it's just unfortunate that Civilization is made this way - it's wrong, but it's the way it has been done, so until someone actually designs a civ game where you start off as nameless wandering people, we're stuck with this nonsense.

[Miznia]

asleepathewheel said:
The more civs, the merrier.

You know, I feel like it isn't, necessarily. If I can't for the life of me imagine a certain civ as a world power, I don't want it in the game (unless it's programmed to suck a little).

Imagine you're playing the Egyptians, Romans, Chinese, or some other grand civilization... And your opposition turns out to be the Swedes, or Poles, or Argentina. That seems really lame to me.

There's also the problem of being able to believe it when one civ beats up another. Sioux kicking the snot out of China: how am I supposed to deal with that? or the Dutch conquer Russia?

In CTP I don't think I ever had the displeasure of encountering the Cuban civ, but if I had, I think I'd be pretty annoyed.

Anyway, I think that 24 civs is already going to be pushing it...

[Miznia]

What I'd like to know is why must a civilization have an effect in order to be worthy of being a civilization to recreate history?

Really, it should be done the right way, and it's just unfortunate that Civilization is made this way - it's wrong, but it's the way it has been done, so until someone actually designs a civ game where you start off as nameless wandering people, we're stuck with this nonsense

Do you kind of mean like you could do in Imperialism, where all the country and province names could be randomized, and players were differentiated mainly by color? I can just imagine the discussions...

"Why does dark cyan make such unreasonable trade proposals?"
"OLIVE GREEN IS A LIAR"
"Why is medium gray Religious/Commercial?"
etc.

[HazieDaVampire]

Brazil is getting like America, modern industries, Beating natives of with a stick! Its just like America cept 100/200 years behind in its attitude and getting more modern!

[Alex]

Originally posted by Miznia


You know, I feel like it isn't, necessarily. If I can't for the life of me imagine a certain civ as a world power, I don't want it in the game (unless it's programmed to suck a little).

I agree with you. If the Brazilians would be in the game, then it could be programmed to have serious corruption problems in ALL of its cities, including the capital...

(Hey, I'm from Brazil, so I have the right to criticize my own country... )

[siredgar]

Corruption is rampant in poorer countries. It is NOT a "Brazilian" characteristic. When a country becomes better off and the gap between the rich and the poor is reduced, corruption levels always go down. Anyhow, corruption is present in ALL countries. There are just different levels and forms of it. I am sure that once Brazil achieves a higher standard of living for ALL, it will not be such a problem.

[Alex]

Siredgar: I know that corruption is not a "Brazilian" characteristic. I was just mocking my own country, which is what anyone with a good spirit should do from time to time.

On the other hand, corruption has become a "cultural" trend in Brazil; it is so strong that it spreads out in all fields of social relations, from the public space to the private sphere. Our elites have very few or no respect for legal behaviour, because its members are used to get what they want irrespective of whom might get harmed on the process. And they are never punished for their attitudes, and this, in turn, stimulates them even more to act the way they do. In order to change this state of things, it would be necessary a big change in consciousness and that change has to come from the elite members, because the common people are extraordinarily "sedated" and ignorant to take the fate of the nation on their hands.

Hence my pessimism.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Miznia


You know, I feel like it isn't, necessarily. If I can't for the life of me imagine a certain civ as a world power, I don't want it in the game (unless it's programmed to suck a little).

Imagine you're playing the Egyptians, Romans, Chinese, or some other grand civilization... And your opposition turns out to be the Swedes, or Poles, or Argentina. That seems really lame to me.

There's also the problem of being able to believe it when one civ beats up another. Sioux kicking the snot out of China: how am I supposed to deal with that? or the Dutch conquer Russia?

Anyway, I think that 24 civs is already going to be pushing it...

Different strokes. I just figure, the more civs, the more unique characteristics, the more varied the gameplay. Playing all random 15 opponents would then actually mean something. This is, of course, assuming that Firaxis will add in new characteristics.

And, isn't the tag on Civ: rewrite world history? I think it would be fun to start out as say Canada, and take over the world. I'm not that hung up on reality.

[Weymaster]

Brazil as a Civ? I don't think so

Ahem... well, i've been an observer of this flame war, but let me explain why Brazil shouldn't be included in Civ3, and for that matter why other countries should be:

1) While Brazil is a big country (about the same size of the US) and has a big population, it hasn't affected much of the world's affairs, right? If I am wrong, please tell me about 3 Brazilians that influenced the world as much as American, French or Chinese leaders had... Even Cuba could be more important than Brazil in this context (let's remember that Fidel Castro has been a pain in the American @ss since 1951)...

2) If you want to 'fill the spot' of South America, why not to have the Inca Nation instead? In the context of Civ3 it would be a good balancing force against Sioux and Aztecs, and in reality, they were the most advanced civilization in the Americas until the Spanish invasion.

3) If you think of Brazil as a 'future glorious Civilization', why not Argentina, Canada or Mexico? For example: Mexico (a) has a bigger economy than Brazil, (b) Mexico is the only country around the world that has invaded continental US (in the 20th century) ... The whole point is, Latin America cant be a separate civilization

That's it thank you. Please don't let this forum degenerate into a political debate.

[Seeker]

I agree that we need to fill up South America.

But Civ is about civilizations 'standing the test of time', not modern nations.

Seeing the Brazilian phalanxs in 2000BC would be like CtP, with Jamaican and Nicaraguan 'civs'.

South America should be represented by the Incas.

[Chris Wilkinson]

Seeing the Brazilian phalanxs in 2000BC would be like CtP, with Jamaican and Nicaraguan 'civs'.

Therefore the Americans should not be included. I don't think Brazil has been around long enough to be included...I agree with the Incas.