World War I in Europe - tracker

[Ljube]

LOL, I don't like anyone forcing me to do anything.

I'd like the freedom to choose if I may please.


Who knows, maybe I end up allied with Austria.

[Modo44]

Maybe you will. But I would not count on it, as a Sid AI is extremely expensive to bribe into anything.

And Jon, no trading anything to AI on the first turn.

Game will be up (again ) in about two hours.

[joncnunn]

I'm pretty sure that Ottoman Empire was a charter member of the Central Powers and did, in name, join the war right away.

Authough they might not have been ready for the war and therefore slow to actually attack anyone. In addition, Greece was a higher priority for the Ottoman Empire since the agreements with Austria-Hungary were that Serbia goes to Austrian-Hungary and Greece goes to the Ottoman Empire.

Austria-Hungary were the same empire until the treaty of Verdue broke them up.

It's also pretty clear that even if the Central Powers have won, they'd have had trouble holding down the subject populations in the balkins. (The German empire wouldn't have that problem directly because they'd have created a Poland as a puppet state themselves, [only their version wouldn't have included those portions of Poland that were taken from Germany and Austria-Hungary.] Athough I can imagine that the Austria-Hungarian empire might have very well called in the Germans to help hold down the Serbians, with the Ottomans turks making the same demand on the Germans to help hold down the Greeks.)

[joncnunn]

Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko
LOL, I don't like anyone forcing me to do anything.

I'd like the freedom to choose if I may please.

Who knows, maybe I end up allied with Austria.

Historically, the Austrian empire would only have accepted peace on turn 1 if they'd been allowed to occupy the country.

[joncnunn]

Yes, we need that historic triggering event to get the war started.

Originally posted by Modo44
Sooo, do I include the forced war between Austria-Hungary and Serbia, or not? Be precise, this time.

[Modo44]

Jon, let me remind you:

Originally posted by Modo44
This wil happen only if Ljube agrees to start in such a bad position.

Ljube said not to include the forced war. End of story.


Sorry, but Civ3 is very bad when you are trying to be historically accurate. WW II could be a bit closer to real life, but that scenario is still lacking. It turns out this one is a historical mess, too. Either you accept it and play what you get, or... Well, I started the game, so I have the final word, so there is no other option, really.

If you want better historical accurancy, go ahead and change the scenario, and then start a game based on your modifications (The Mustard Gas unit needs to have its Civilopedia entry changed, or the scenario will not load.) I will gladly join it as a different nation.

[Ljube]

Well, I'm from Serbia and I know what I'm talking about.


In August 1914 Austria-Hungary attacked Serbia and lost a battle on Cer Mountain in western Serbia. Overconfident Austrians deployed their forces in the narrow valley and exposed to artillery bombardment from Serbian batteries positioned on higher ground. This caused panic among Austrian recruits and they started to run back home. Serbian reserves then started to chase them and Serbia even occupied several Bosnian cities (Visegrad, Sarajevo).

Still, this was but a minor setback for Austria as the forces assigned to the operation were relatively small in numbers compared to what Austria had at her disposal. In November same year Austria-Hungary launched a new offensive against Serbia, this time with overwhelming numbers. They advanced deep into Serbia, captured Belgrade and it seemed as if Serbian army was totally defeated. However, on 3 December 1914 Serbian army launched a counter-offensive along the river Kolubara (hence the name of the battle: Battle of Kolubara), achieved a breakthrough and liberated Serbian cities of Valjevo and Sabac in the western Serbia. Facing encirclement the Austrians retreated. This was the biggest victory of the Serbian army in WWI.



Turkey entered war in late October 1914 on Germany's side. Of course, Turkey was unable to attack Serbia because Bulgaria and Greece were between Serbia and Turkey.


Bulgaria entered war on Germany's side in October 1915. At the same time Germany and Austria launched a big offensive against Sebia. The combined Germany-Austria-Bulgarian forces were 3 times more numerous than Serbian army, so Serbs decided to retreat. Since the direct route toward Greece along the Morava and the Vardar valley was severed by Bulgarians, Serbs retreated through Kosovo, Montenegro and Albania. A heroic battle was fought on Christmas 1916 (7 January 1916) between the army of Montenegro and the army of Austria-Hungary. Austrians had several times more troops than Montenegrins, but their position was poor and they couldn't advance through the narrow gorge in the mountainous region of northern Montenegro. The Montenegrins fought bravely, holding out long enough for the Serbian Army to complete its withdrawal. After that, in February 1916, Montenegro capitulated.


Also, in 1918 after the capitulation of Austria on 3 November 1918, Hungary broke away from Austria and went on with the war on its own. Serbia fought a war with Hungary long after the war in other parts of Europe ended. Hungary signed cease-fire on 23 November 1918. This was due to the Hungarian bid to get a separate armistice and separate peace treaty. They got them all right, but lost 2 thirds of their territory in the process.

[joncnunn]

Hum, I didn't know that Hungary broke away from Austria on its own, thought it was a treaty of Verdun thing, like Serbia enlarged to form Yugoslavia.

Next thing you know, someone is going to say that the Baltic Republics had already established their independence from the Russian empire (and the Poles from the section of Poland taken from Russia) before the tretry of Verdun was signed.

[Ljube]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Historically, the Austrian empire would only have accepted peace on turn 1 if they'd been allowed to occupy the country.

Hmm, not entirely true. There was a secret treaty between Austria na Serbia, signed in 1881, called the Secret Convention which defined all aspects of mutual relations and foreign policy of both countries. The treaty was completely secret, i.e. nobody knew of its existence save the highest officials in both countries. The treaty was signed and upheld while Obrenovic Dynasty was in power. However on 29. May 1903 there was a coup in Serbia and a new dynasty came to power (Karadjordjevic Dynasty).

Had there been another coup in Serbia, or a renewal of the treaty, Serbia would have had nothing to worry. After all, Austria didn't want to destroy or occupy Serbia. She merely wanted to bring Serbia back in line.

[Ljube]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Hum, I didn't know that Hungary broke away from Austria on its own, thought it was a treaty of Verdun thing, like Serbia enlarged to form Yugoslavia.

Next thing you know, someone is going to say that the Baltic Republics had already established their independence from the Russian empire (and the Poles from the section of Poland taken from Russia) before the tretry of Verdun was signed.

A separate peace treaty was signed with Hungary on 4 June 1920 (Treaty of Trianon).


However, the date of the armistice with Hungary is from my memory, so it may have been a few days earlier or later. The fact is that Hungary was the Central Power to capitulate last in WWI.

[joncnunn]

Austria had recently annexed Bosnia-Huz. soon before the war started and that arch duke was in fact there to assert Austrian rule there. It's clear that Austria was expanding South East. Perhaps because the Prussians had beaten the Austrians and unified with those Southern German states which had been under Austrian influence?

For that matter, the intended target wasn't that arch duke but the local governor, and it's clear that the conspiracy did not originate from the Serbian govt dispite the Austrians claimed at the time. Angering Austria was not what the Serbian govt wanted.

[Ljube]

The conspiracy didn't originate from the Serbian Government, but it may have been encouraged by the Government and even aided indirectly, through proxies close to both sides (the government of Serbia and the illegal Bosnian organisation "Mlada Bosna" - "Bosnian Youth" which organised the assassination of the arch duke).

During the reign of King Alexander I Obrenovic (1889-1903) a group of young officers organised a resistance movement against his rule. They were primarily against him for his marriage to a widowed 11 years his senior court lady Draga Masin, who became Queen in 1900. After that things turned for the worse. Wages of the army officers were cut. Queen's brothers whom the army despised assumed high military positions. It all led to such resent that the young officers in question organised a group called "Crna Ruka" (Black Hand). This group was aided by Russia and Peter Karadjordjevic, son of exiled former ruler of Serbia Alexander Karadjrdjevic. Peter Karadjordjevic was also famous for his participation in the Bosnian rebellion (1875-1878) where he led a small army of rebels against Turks and gained sympathies of the Serbian general population. The young officers also had sympathies for the Bosnian independence movement.

Following his ascension to the throne, King Peter I Karadjordjevic promptly renounced the Secret Convention. This resulted in economic sanctions imposed by Austria (ban on pork imported from Serbia - the so called Pork war) and political actions (annexation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1908). To avoid an outright war with Austria, King Peter and his Prime Minister Nikola Pasic resorted to alternative channels. Once again the Black hand was employed, this time to provide supplies and training to the Bosnian paramilitaries. Although a direct link between the Serbian Government and the Sarajevo assassination did not exist, it was possible to trace it through the Black Hand and its members.

[Modo44]

Wow, quite a history lesson there.


On a side note , the new save went out to Czar Trollius IV.

First post updated with the following: AI set to Sid, permanent war set between France and Austria-Hungary.

[joncnunn]

Another interesting read related to WWI is Turtledove's triology "The Great War" but start with the 1880s prequeal "How Few Remain"

That is followed by "The American Empire" triology [post WWI to beginning of WWII],

which is followed by "Return Engagement" triology. (WW II) But only the first book in this is currently out. (The second is due in August, and the 3rd in Aug 2006)

It remains to be seen if turtledove is going to continue this series past WW II; I guess it depends in part upon book sales for the 2nd and 3rd books.

Without spoiler infomation, this whole set is based on "What if the South won the Civil War." In this case, General Lee's lost orders prior to Amtieum are recovered by the South instead of captured by the North as they were historically. The amusing thing there is that the soilders say "we almost lost the war right there."

[Beta]

Good read.

btw - which download do we need - the English version or the MP version?? (I know I know. A stupid question.)