Outliving the barbarians

[snoopy369]

Oh, and if you want to strengthen barbs a bit more, start them at 3hp instead of 2. Either by making them start as "regular", or just by adding 1hp to their units.

[Rommel2D]

Snoopy, have you ever noticed there's an 'edit' option at the top of your posts?

(yeah, I know you're in enough games you'll beat me to emperor anyway ;-)

[Modo44]

Snoopy, you'd be right about expansionists, were there not the agricultural civs. The advantages are very different, but you'll see that in the game, methinks.

You'll have to explain the Celts and Persians thing to me. Frankly, I don't get it.

I would give the barbs more HP and I will with the Keshiks and the ships. I can't, however, strenghten the Swordsman, as players will use it. I have no idea how to increase the experience level of barb units. The editor doesn't seem to have an option for it.

Welcome aboard.

[edit]

First post updated.

Since there are so many players in the game, I'd like you all to post your most common playing times, so we can work on a sensible playing order.

I am there 8AM - 11AM GMT and 3PM - 11PM GMT, sometimes longer.

[/edit]

[1889]

18 to 06 GMT

[Makahlua]

Here lately I've been having to make way for the rest of the house at night, so 18 - 24 GMT and ~5GMT - 12 GMT (yes, I keep odd hours - thanks for noticing! ^^)

[Paddy]

oh hours here to play civ




must consult my guru



ahhh excellent

and the answer is - most of the time

[snoopy369]

Possibly one turn early morning CT (GMT-6), always turns in the evening 7pm-11pm CT (GMT 0100-0500).

Celts and particularly Persians both have iron working UUs. That's basically why I think they're no worse/better for this game than greeks. I mean, what advantage does a Hoplite have that an Immortal doesn't have? 4/2/1 against 3/2/1 barbarians...

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by snoopy369
I mean, what advantage does a Hoplite have that an Immortal doesn't have? 4/2/1 against 3/2/1 barbarians...

It's all in the traits

And the Celts have a significant advantage over the Persians, being Agricultural But the Persians have nice traits too

[Paddy]

nothing wrong with barbarians

as long as they worship me

and slaughter my enemies

[punkbass2000]

I can always play 3-4 pm and 3:30-5:30am GMT, and usually a fair amount of other times, my schedule is variable.

[Modo44]

Snoopy, the offensive UUs don't do much good, believe me. The barbs will start fielding Keshiks instead of Swords by the time Immortals or Gallic Swordsmen come to play. Keshiks have 3 defense, and can retreat, but have "only" 4 attack. That's why I find the strong defenders too powerful.

Aqualung, just wait until some Celtic cities get stripped of improvments. The you'll know how being industrious would help. Pady will tell us all, I'm sure.

Paddy, I wasn't really asking about your playing times. I know you don't sleep.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Aqualung71


It's all in the traits

And the Celts have a significant advantage over the Persians, being Agricultural But the Persians have nice traits too

I guess i feel that any civ advantage is useful sometimes and not useful sometimes. With the exception of seafaring, I never understand limiting a particular trait, to be honest; ag is useful sometimes, but not always, just like sci. and comm. and ind. are as well.

Modo, it's not so much that I think the immortals etc. are useful, as that I don't see how the hoplites are MORE useful. Okay, 3 defense, sure - but everyone gets an advantage from their UU, it's the point of the UU. I don't tend to play defensive games against the barbs; I play an offensive game, where I attack their stacks before they get to me. Admittedly this game is a bit ... harsher, i'm sure. But still, the advantage I gain having a Hoplite as defensive UU I lose when we hit chivalry and tactics ... Otherwise I'd have to suggest banning the Ottomans from ever playing any game any time, since their UU is +2 offense.

Anyways, it's not a big deal, I was just saying I thought it was equivalent

The way you'd make the barb unit have more HP is to make a new unit, identical to the swordsmen, but only barb-producable, with the extra hp.

[1889]

OK Modo, I see the point of net settle desert, but irrigation doesn't realy cause a problem.

Agricultural civs, demand your rights!

[Modo44]

No way, man. The desert is gonna be empty. Totally. If you could irrigate it, you'd be putting productive cities on it's edges and pushing borders with culture. Taking space from the barbs would be too easy. Sorry, no go.

Snoopy, a 3-defense Hoplite can easily take a 4-attacker when put on a hill. I have played very long with Mounted Warriors (3/1/2) as strong barbs and found that a Spear forted in a Forest was enough to stop many an "onslaught". The point is, your defender will be vet and then elite quite fast, giving him many more HPs than the attacker has. So he can take most 1-1 attacks with ease. With an attack of 4 agains a defense of 3, the Keshik has even worse chances against a Hoplite than a Mounted Warrior against a Spearman. Remember, barbs don't retreat or gain experience. That's why the strong defenders had to go.

[snoopy369]

I think that if you're playing a scenario that is intentionally stuck in the iron age for the whole game, then you're right.

If you're playing a game that will progress through that age into the modern age ... the advantage early on is negated by the fact that you *have* an early UU. Despotic GA, lack of ability to compete versus late UU, when the PBEM really happens anyways...

It's to some extent in my mind a difference between SP and MP, i guess. In MP, you win most of your battles somewhere between Feudalism and Tactics. Thus, having a GA then is good; having a UU there is better.

It's not at all true in SP, of course; most SP people either play aggressively in the iron age, or are builders and wait until tanks to fight if at all. But, I think that you'll find, assuming one survives to the middle ages, that the ottomans, the arabs, the russians, have a significant advantage over the greeks and the carthaginians, in a PBEM game. True, I have to build an extra spearman compared to the hoplites; but spearmen are cheaper anyways ... and 3 or 4 keshiks will kill a hoplite just as dead as a spearman.

One of the C3C changes was, as far as I can tell, to increase the randomness of the RNG, meaning that yes, on average a hilled hoplite (3+1.5+1.5=6) will win against a keshik (4); but only about 60% of the time give or take (hp for hp), and the Keshik will win sometimes more than you think it should. That's why I say to give the Keshik more HP. (Compare a spearman; 2+1+1=4, at least an even chance to start with; add in strategic rivers, or a city wall, and the spearman will win too, most of the time.)