One-Armed Bandits

[snoopy369]

These national names mean nothing to the poor people of the Ottoman Empire ...

[Rommel2D]

The Dutch also choose to ignore these fables of factions among the lost civilization of Atlanta.

Since all players have not met in the game yet, such a broadcast message goes against Iron Civer etiquette, Moonbars.

This seems like a good time for some needed housekeeping-
I had asked for everyone to give input on the rules, but was distracted by the discussion over the etiquette options. Trip, Theseus, and myself all were for agreeing to the options, and self-biased never commented. Moonbars and snoopy were being legislative over the options. Does anyone object to using these options (no talk of unknown technology, no directions used without mapmaking, and no hostile activity outside of the game's mechanics)?

For combat reporting, again Trip, Theseus, and myself were for 2.5, Mooney and s/b wanted 2, and snoop would go either way. Any suggestions on how to resolve this?

[Moonbars]

apologies, I was under the impression I *had* to make a broadcast.

I agree to your options in para 2.

With regard reporting, I am happy to make full listings of all combat that takes place (including bombabrment that does no damage) .

[snoopy369]

lol, moonbars ...

The only things you "have" to do is tell other players when you attack them, and possibly (this is the difference between 2 and 2.5) tell the specific player that you entered and exited in the same turn an area he could have seen your unit in. That, and a declaration of war without unit combat should be mentioned (although that's a point of politeness and not a rule).

No posts about anything game related may, under IC rules, be made until every player in the game has contact with every other player in the game. I suppose it's not bad if you have contact with everyone else - I'd have a hard time figuring out if everyone else had contact with everyone else anyways, and you'd have the right to say something; someone might not be allowed to reply is all. (This would meet the technical IC rule requirements. Read 1.2 carefully

By the way Rommel, I have a comment/question about 3.2. That's sort of a standard PBEM rule, not really just an IC rule. But I have a beef with it. See, I'm often a last player, and I understand that I shouldn't be taking advantage of the fact that it sort of moves my piece a second time, theoretically moving it past an enemy before it gets a chance to attack me, or reinforcing a city before it can be attacked.

But, see, any player can do that *except* the first player. Only the first player gains no advantage from a "goto"; even the second player can use it to prevent the first player from attacking a city, or anything else -- it's just not as obvious, and of course the last player *always* can do it, while any other player can do it only to avoid a player before them.

I feel it should either go unmentioned, or it should be explicit that NO player can use GOTO in such a way (or at all, but I'd have a real problem with that). Particularly since a lot of people interpret the rule (or the "should be" rule) to mean that the last player should never use GOTO.

[snoopy369]

Regarding 2.5 vs 2, I'm fine with either, but with the caveat that I think 2.5 is not a simple thing for some people, particularly those with less knowledge of CIV and the sight ranges of units.

I think that it's harder to report moving in and out of range of sight than it is to report combat; combat is straightforward, while moving in and out of sight ranges requires both knowledge of civ and attention to detail, which would punish people with more of both ...

[Rommel2D]

Originally posted by Moonbars
apologies, I was under the impression I *had* to make a broadcast.

(excuse me, but- ;-)


The formal etiquette in the IC list is all about addressing loopholes in PBEM game that are there because it was adapted from a single player game. What is important is that alliances and wars are declared in the game (visible in the foreign advisor screen) so that effects like war weariness are calculated by the program properly.

Any diplomatic etiquette, like informing other players of your intentions, is meant to be left for players to work out voluntarily as it does not affect game mechanics.

A broadcast message in the thread is the same as sending that message to all other players individually- If you cannot see any of the players in the F4 screen you cannont send a message to them and should not put any messages in your thread posts either...

[Rommel2D]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Regarding 2.5 vs 2, I'm fine with either, but with the caveat that I think 2.5 is not a simple thing for some people, particularly those with less knowledge of CIV and the sight ranges of units.

I think that it's harder to report moving in and out of range of sight than it is to report combat; combat is straightforward, while moving in and out of sight ranges requires both knowledge of civ and attention to detail, which would punish people with more of both ...

How would it be 'punishment'? Sure it takes a little extra time, but otherwise it would seem more of a handicapping system. Players with more knowledge of the game end up going a little further to make less accomplished players aware of the game's finer points.

Anybody who is careless or ignorant enough to miss reporting the event could gain a slight advantage, but if it was an honest mistake, they will likely be making more mistakes in strategy and MMing. The same principle would apply to any of the etiquette points as well, not just this part of combat reporting...

[Rommel2D]

Originally posted by snoopy369
By the way Rommel, I have a comment/question about 3.2.
[...]
But, see, any player can do that *except* the first player. Only the first player gains no advantage from a "goto"; even the second player can use it to prevent the first player from attacking a city, or anything else -- it's just not as obvious, and of course the last player *always* can do it, while any other player can do it only to avoid a player before them.

I asked the same question about this very point before adding it to the etiquette list. A few reliable, informed players assured me this only happened with the last player. I just looked for the discussion in the March Madness thread and couldn't find it. I'll try a search some other time to see if I can track it down...

[snoopy369]

It only appears to happen with the last player because he/she can see it. *All* gotos happen on the last player's turn, just like all barbarian combat and moves occur on the last player's turn. At least I'm 99% sure i've seen other players gotos occuring on my turn when I was the last player ...

[snoopy369]

Anyways, je m'attends la jeu ... and may be late this afternoon/evening playing it, depending on work. (Well, the boss asked me to go over and fix a computer at home, and offered dinner ... i may do that today and thus be late coming back

[snoopy369]

*bump*

[Theseus]

Sorry guys, I need an interpretation please: No GOTOs?

[Jon Shafer]

You can't use the g or j shortcut-hotkeys if it moves units over multiple turns.

[Rommel2D]

I usually use the the mouse to click-n-drag my GoTos.

Ok, somebody once told me that the goto command could only be used as an exploit by the last person due to a fluke of turn mechanisms, not just player order, but I can't track it down in a thread. I figured it was our resident demo gaming expert- Trip, do you have any more references on this?

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Theseus
Sorry guys, I need an interpretation please: No GOTOs?

You may not use GOTO if and only if it would provide you with a strategic advantage by allowing multiple moves in a turn. Effectively, if i'm the last player, and I move a piece through goto, it's going to effectively move 2 spots before my next opponent gets to move one spot (assuming it's a 1 move piece) because it gets the move for the current year, and then at the end of the turn the game processes gotos for the next year. You lose a move the next turn, so you don't net gain one, but you essentially give up a turn the last move of the goto to gain one on the first move. So, it's ok during normal gameplay, but when you're in or near combat it shouldn't be used unless you're 100% sure it's not going to affect things at all. (Often used to reinforce cities, for example.)

I'm fairly confident it processes *all* gotos, for all players, at the end of the last player's turn. Not everyone agrees with me there; it definitely occurs for the last player, however.