All Day Round (tracker thread II)

[Aqualung71]

Well, I can't find any compelling reason to continue either.

Clearly Sabre has won......an outcome that became cemented in stone when he illegally used his friendly civilisations to generate GA's for each other, which led to him being able to build Leo's (and other wonders) in record time, then upgrade his entire army the turn before I would have attacked him and taken out the poorly defended core city, which would have been a huge setback for Sumeria. Bear in mind also, that the Chinese and Celts did not even use their GA.

Call it sour grapes if you like....but in my opinion it was wrong and gave Sabre an unfair advantage at a time when he was able to use it to steamroll his greatest threat, the Inca.

Apart from that minor detail....congratulations Sabre.

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Well, I can't find any compelling reason to continue either.

Clearly Sabre has won......an outcome that became cemented in stone when he illegally used his friendly civilisations to generate GA's for each other, which led to him being able to build Leo's (and other wonders) in record time, then upgrade his entire army the turn before I would have attacked him and taken out the poorly defended core city, which would have been a huge setback for Sumeria. Bear in mind also, that the Chinese and Celts did not even use their GA.

Call it sour grapes if you like....but in my opinion it was wrong and gave Sabre an unfair advantage at a time when he was able to use it to steamroll his greatest threat, the Inca.

Apart from that minor detail....congratulations Sabre.

we discussed the GA-triggering earlier on and i offered something in return, but everybody said it was ok. and you guys also triggered your GA in the same way, with that validating my initial "unclean" move.

concerning leo's and the upgrades: i had plenty of money to upgrade anyhow. my defences were very thin and only when i realised the threat did i start building more troops and moving all to the border cities. you had plenty of post-leo's turns to attack but didn't do so. about 5 turns later, i also upgraded my horsemen to cavalry and then attacked. so basically, it wasn't my GA that led to my easy victory, but my luck that you did not try an early attack!

and even without GA i would have outproduced and outresearched everybody. my extreme rexing with 2 agricultural civs and the immediate library-build in all sumerian cities made my research so strong, that i could permanently gift money to the dutch to keep up their economy.

but anyhow, i think it's pity that this game is not beeing played out. it sounds more like a resignation of the celts against the iroquois and chinese because of an unprepared 2-front war
but ok, if aqua also wants to stop, then there's probably no sense in continuing...


thanks for the game, everybody!

[Aqualung71]

Well there's not much point in continuing to argue about this. But.....

Originally posted by sabrewolf
we discussed the GA-triggering earlier on and i offered something in return, but everybody said it was ok.

There was nothing you could "offer in return". The damage was done. Your GA allowed you to build Leo's and Copernicus very very quickly, which obviously allowed cheap upgrades and helped your research pace.

and you guys also triggered your GA in the same way, with that validating my initial "unclean" move.

Not true at all. The Inca triggered their GA when it was already too late, and they had lost about half of their cities. If I had done as you had done and triggered my GA say 20 turns earlier in a "friendly" move with the Maya, I would have had sufficient forces to have attacked you earlier and you would never have had the cheap upgrades....I probably would also have been able to take out your capital (with Copernicus) which was nearby.

concerning leo's and the upgrades: i had plenty of money to upgrade anyhow.

Your double GA's allowed you to accumulate huge cash reserves for upgrades, and maintain a fast research pace. The rest of us were working on the basis that a GA could only be triggered by a war event, and a war event would necessarily have a big impact on our build queues. You were able to take maximum advantage of both your GA's during a peaceful time. That has a massive impact.

my defences were very thin and only when i realised the threat did i start building more troops and moving all to the border cities.

Precisely my point. Had I felt it was fair to generate my own GA earlier by way of a pretend war with the Maya, I would have done so and devastated your thin defences and taken out your best production cities. This would have crippled Sumeria.

you had plenty of post-leo's turns to attack but didn't do so. about 5 turns later, i also upgraded my horsemen to cavalry and then attacked.

From memory, it was 2 turns. Perhaps 3. My attack was imminent, and if you hadn't triggered your GA or if I had, the result would have been very different.

so basically, it wasn't my GA that led to my easy victory, but my luck that you did not try an early attack!

As I have already pointed out at length....your GA's (both of them) had a vital and compounding effect on cash (ability to upgrade your weak defences), research (extra commerce plus fast Copernicus) and production (Copernicus plus Leos plus fast military production).

and even without GA i would have outproduced and outresearched everybody. my extreme rexing with 2 agricultural civs and the immediate library-build in all sumerian cities made my research so strong, that i could permanently gift money to the dutch to keep up their economy.

You are so wrong here. Before your GA you were only marginally ahead of the Inca and Chinese in research. Your natural advantages of having 2 Agricultural civs and a Scientific civ did allow you to pull ahead, but not as much as you claim. Your dual GA trigger put the seal on this game. (I note that you have used Sumeria and the Netherlands in another game I was in....clearly a preference of yours and an awesome combination against anyone). The resource situation was also severely skewed in favour of "your" continent, which added insult to injury.

but anyhow, i think it's pity that this game is not beeing played out. it sounds more like a resignation of the celts against the iroquois and chinese because of an unprepared 2-front war
but ok, if aqua also wants to stop, then there's probably no sense in continuing...


thanks for the game, everybody!

I am happy to continue, but as you've already pointed out on many occassions, nobody can stop you, so there is little point. I don't like being constantly reminded of your superiority with comments about Mechanised Infantry and Aerial peacekeeping forces, when most of us don't even have the resources necessary to build Infantry or Cavalry. Particularly when, in my view, your overwhelming superiority was achieved largely because of the timing of your GA's, which were not generated in the way the game is intended to be played.

Sabre, you may well still have won the game had you not generated your GA's illegally. We all recognise you are an accomplished player. However, I can guarantee you it would have been a much much closer and hard fought game! And I would have congratulated your victory, if it had eventuated, more warmly

[sabrewolf]

i don't agree with all of your claims, but there we've just got different opinions.

just 2 small facts you definatly got wrong:
- my dutch GA started a lot later than the sumerian one. i only triggered that one after we had discussed it in here.
- copernicus is not in the capital. the copernicus city was my only productive northern city. all other "good" cities were south.

anyway, i agree that it would have been closer without the sumerian GA.