A few questions about OCC

[Datajack Franit]

Most of the GW are built just for the sake of not having the AI using them

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Dominae
Mad Bomber, you're right about Cultural versus Spaceship wins: your Wonder and improvement choices can be quite different depending on your overall goal. I restrict myself to Spaceship wins exclusively when playing OCC, because 1) that's what was required in Civ2 (not really a good reason), and 2) I find Cultural wins quite easy and rather boring (a very good reason). Winning culturally involves getting the AI not to attack you, and trying to orchestrate things so that one civ does not get too powerful. Building the spaceship requires a lot more challenge come the Modern age.

I mentioned the Hoover Dam above not because its effect is all that useful, but rather in the context of wanting to trigger a late GA as an Industrious civ. It comes at a time where you do not have much to build, and it usually triggers a GA on or around the beginning of the Modern age.


Dominae

Hmm, apparently you are in search of a challange, a spaceship with a OCC definately qualifies. I usually disable the culture victory in my normal games but I wouldn't find a culture win with an OCC a cheap win unless you are playing on a really low level. Do you try for diplomatic wins with OCC or limit yourself to spaceship only? Finally one last point: anyone who can win by conquest with an OCC is a CIV 3 master.

[Dominae]

I'm sorry if I made it seem like a cultural OCC victory is an easy feat. It is not always obvious how to survive with only one city, and keep up in tech enough to get a shot at those Culture-heavy Wonders. But actually getting the Spaceship built is a whole other ballgame. Since I know this is possible (I've done it once or twice), I'm willing to dub the "real" OCC challenge the spaceship OCC victory.

Diplomatic OCC wins are in the same category as cultural ones, IMO. Since your power is irrelevant to your chances of winning diplomatically (unlike in SMAC), all you need to do is 1) survive until the Modern age, 2) build the UN, 3) get all the civs to be Gracious toward you. Doing all three is easier than you would think.

Conquest OCC? On a Standard map and above, that's a real challenge! Having only finished one Conquest game myself, I can also say it would be extremely frustrating. My hat is off to anyone who does it (I know someone will, eventually).


Dominae

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by Dominae
Well, you've got a point about Monotheism, but you're ignoring Nationalism and Rocketry. The fact that the AI pays big money for these is huge in OCC. Getting these first or second is one of my main goals in OCC. Once you're getting all the AI's gpt, you're set for the Space Race.

They're nice but they come late. It's more important that you actually get the wonders you need in the middle ages. This relies too much on you being ahead by then. If you can get enough gpt to cripple the AI, you have little use for it in the Industrial age. Commercial giving 8/12 beakers pt is not going to be anywhere near as good at this stage but at least it gives you science faster. That's only equivalent to 12gpt off every other civ. If you can get to the industrial age that early, you are likely to be able to get a tech lead at some point (ToE being the obvious one.)

Earlier than that, Commercial is better than Scientific.

The race for the Great Library is more a race for Shields than for Literature.

Really? How? Unless you get Literature fast, the Pyramids will be built first. Then getting literature first would give you a headstart on building the GL. Or is it that your relative shield output is growing at that time so there is an advantage in not getting literature so early that it will be extorted before this peaks? I wouldn't have thought so. I don't think the AI shield output for likely cities will have reached the happiness limit then. Or am I just talking complete ********?

So Scientific/Industrious is quite a good combo. So is Scientific/Religious. The problem comes with Scientific/Commercial or Scientific/Expansionist, since each of these trigger an early Wonder (Colossus and Great Library, or Copernicus). But as you can see there are good options available for Scientific without having to resort to Militaristic. That one half-cost Harbor is a pretty weak advantage.

I'm not sure why you want to Archer rush anyway; are you planning on winning an OCC by Conquest? I'm not considering those types of games.

I wasn't trying to argue that militaristic is that good (except in that no trait is that useful.) The main point of this was to back you up on the usefulness of Industrious.
The Colossus is Religious, Expansionist and Commercial and a GA triggered by the Great Library would be the worst possible timing. That is why Militaristic would be my second choice of partner for Scientific. Civ3 is more boring if you only play Indusrious civs.

I have archer rushed for a non-conquest victory before. But I started right next to the Germans.

The problem with triggering with a UU is that you have to go to war. I consider this a bad thing to do in OCC. Ideally you want to for the other civs to be at war with each other, but Gracious toward you. Unless you're willing to spend a lot of resources on defense, your best plans will be ruined when the AI shows up with a couple of Tanks. It is much easier just to stay peaceful.

In an ideal world, yes. The trouble is normally when neighbouring civs are also at peace.

You should be in a position for your neighbours to protect you from a couple of tanks. I often prepare the necessary units as a back up plan even if I'm aiming for a wonder trigger.

As for the Hoover Dam, you said it:

you do not have much to do production-wise before the Modern age.

It's just too early.

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Finally one last point: anyone who can win by conquest with an OCC is a CIV 3 master.

On deity or a huge map, obviously.

I had an OCC conquest win in the only game I tried. I may have been lucky but it shouldn't be too hard on regent and a tiny map from a fair percentage of starts. I certainly don't consider myself a CIV 3 master.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Nor Me
They're nice but they come late. It's more important that you actually get the wonders you need in the middle ages. This relies too much on you being ahead by then.

In my OCC games Nationalism and Rocketry are critical to success. Nationalism gives you some breathing room after the end of the Medieval age "rush". It gives you some buying power in a important and tech-heavy part of the game. Rocketry is equally important, since once you're in the Modern times, it's a race to get all the techs before that AI does so that you have time to complete all the SS parts. If you set yourself up to sell Rocketry to all the non-Scientific civs, it makes the race a lot easier.

Earlier than that, Commercial is better than Scientific.

You get 2gpt + 1gpt from a Marketplace. At banks you get an extra +1 gpt. That's hardly comparable to 2 free techs and cheaper Libraries and Universities. Another thing to consider is that the entire game is important in OCC (if you're going for the Space Race). The extra bit of Gold you get early on will not be a big deal in your overall success (although, admittedly, I would never refuse an extra few gpt in an OCC game!).

Really? How? Unless you get Literature fast, the Pyramids will be built first. Then getting literature first would give you a headstart on building the GL.

In my experience on Emperor, you get to Literature pretty fast. You can prebuild the Great Library with either the Pyramids or the Oracle before then.

I wasn't trying to argue that militaristic is that good (except in that no trait is that useful.)

I realise that now. My bad.

The Colossus is Religious, Expansionist and Commercial and a GA triggered by the Great Library would be the worst possible timing. That is why Militaristic would be my second choice of partner for Scientific. Civ3 is more boring if you only play Indusrious civs.

Huh? We're talking strategy here; "boring" does not enter this discussion. By your arguments, I think that Scientific/Industrious is the a great choice for OCC, regardless of whether you think Industrious is boring or not.

Note that another option is not to build The Colossus. This removes the GA problem for many civs.

I had an OCC conquest win in the only game I tried. I may have been lucky but it shouldn't be too hard on regent and a tiny map from a fair percentage of starts. I certainly don't consider myself a CIV 3 master.

I will not go so far as saying that Tiny map Conquest victories are easy, but they do not depend so much on skill. There must be something close to an algorithm for beating Deity on a Tiny Pangea map.


Dominae

[Catt]

I have limited experience with OCC. I have played 5 or 6 OCC games - one on Monarch, one on Warlord, the rest on Regent. My first few games were under what I later learned were absurd rules (never having played Civ II) -- no units leaving my cultural radius (i.e., no huts, no offensive actions, no trade until well into the middle ages). All wins have been cultural or diplomatic - never tried SS or the military wins. With these caveats, my one useful (hopefully) contribution:

The Colossus is a huge wonder for an OCC game -- it offers a "half" Golden Age for the entire game (culture or diplo) and for at least 2/3's of the game for a spaceship win.

Catt