Announcement

**Zer0_T0lerance** · November 20, 2000, 14:45

Yes, I think we need an in-game editor for everything!

Specifically, the scenario editor in Civ2 is not very customisable. There are too many limitations which can keep you making a good scenario. I once tried to make a historically accurate Cold War scenario in Civ2 and couldn't do it because of the limitations. Also, the scenario editor in Civ2 is too hard to understand. I think that creating scenarios in Civ3 needs to be more intuitive and easier, ie., no more textbased editing--everything should done from within the game. Make it so easy that a baby could do it (point-and-click interface)! But don't make it so simple that you take away customisability; add more power to it! Complete on-line documentation on how to create scenarios is a must; there is just too much stuff that the book doesn't tell you about creating scenarios in Civ2.

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Zero
[This message has been edited by Zero_Tolerance (edited November 20, 2000).]

**MarkG** · November 20, 2000, 16:38

glad to see someone noticed today's poll
i'm top-ing this thread and de-toping the threads about the polls(in order to not have too many threads on the top of the forum)

on the question, i'll quote myself

quote:

with "editors for everything" i mean having tools (in the released thing, not after the release online) to make maps, scenarios, edit the text files, the unit sprites and the city/terrain graphics, everything and to be able to create a load-able mod in a few minutes

**Ralf** · November 20, 2000, 18:55

PART ONE (more to come)

I would prefer an external combined cut-and-paste map/scenario-editor.

Why external? Because its to easy to cheat with an in-game editor - just one menu-click away. With an external editor you have to save > open external editor > load the game > do the cheating > save the changes > open the changed game with the main program again. Not impossible, but a little more prohibitive.

Why combined? Well, all "scenarios" dont have to be that advanced. Once im finished with the map, i might as well continue with a very basic setup:
cut-and-paste 2-3 cities on optimal starting-locations for each civ, and then adding some few basic tile-improvements. I want to be able to do that manually, so im sure that each civ gets a fair opening-chance.

Why cut-and-paste? Because its enormously time-saving and much more intuitive! I realize that once you dabble with changed graphics, rules, techs and so on, its unavoidable that things takes time.
But what if i only want to create a simple standard-rule scenario-setup? In Civ-2/SMAC one STILL had to painstakingly do everything civ-by-civ, and turn-by-turn, in a rather roundabout manner.

-------------- text edited, see my 2:nd post

In practice i did many attemps, but i NEVER finish any scenarious. I really wanted to, but it was it just too much exchausting work.

I want to load an finished (but empty settler-free) map; then drag-and-drop from a multi-paged palette all cities (in differant sizes/styles) for all civs on to that map.

Then above is done i want to be able to choose from a screen with connected dropdown-fields (combo-boxes?):
choose [city-improvement], then
choose [globally/specific civ], then
choose [all cities/1-3 sized/4-6-sized/7-9-sized...] and finally a "Generate" button.

Then i click on the units-tab, and then i basically do the same with the units:

choose [unit], then
choose [globally/specific civ], then
choose [all cities/1-3 sized/4-6-sized/7-9-sized...] and finally a "Generate" button to the right.

Then i click on the tile-improvement tab, an do the same with tile-improvements in city-areas (only):

choose [tile-improvement], then
choose [globally/specific civ], then
choose [all cities/1-3 sized/4-6-sized/7-9-sized...] and finally the "Generate" button.

Now, i have a rough layout here. We go back to that multi-paged palette i used for the city-sizes and styles. I can now click on the city-improvement tab, the unit-tab or the tile-improvement tab: then basically fine-tweak any city by copy-and-paste (or right-click delete) any improvement to any city, as simple as 1-2-3.

If i want to check the updated result in any city, i can doubleclick that city and up pops a scenario city-screen with the city-info.

Finally, i want to be able to tie the whole sack up, by adding...

- Civ-specific governments.
- Tie together trade-routes between civs.
- Setup basic diplomacy relations between civs.
- Anything more?

Other things like health, happiness, demograpics and advances in the tech-tree should be calculated automatically on the basis off all of above choices.

Thats basically it! (for the time being). All of above is of course must-haves.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited November 21, 2000).]

**Panda** · November 20, 2000, 21:04

quote:

In Civ-2/SMAC one STILL had to painstakingly do everything civ-by-civ, and then turn-by-turn - basically playing the whole scenario pre-history in slow-motion, before one finally came to the scenario point-of-today.

You did what?!

I agree scenario editing in civ2 was awkward because of the limited editors, but it wasn't that bad. The trouble is having a very easy to use, very simple editor with cut-and-paste functions, drop and drag (it would be brill if you could drag completed cities to different locations ) are not going to make scenario creation that much easier.

Basically I'd like the most comprehensive editor you can give us. Every factor that can be changed should be open to us to change/toggle. Why only allow cities to clear disorder/we love the King when you can't invoke those situations? Why allow shields to be edited, but not food? Gothmog did an excellent job of creating an external city information editor based on investigations into hacking the save game file which allows a fine job for this in Civ2. Especially with regards to trade routes. Actually I think I'd favour an external program for this kind of editing in the same way as we have a map editor to create maps.

Cut-and-paste functions would be vitally important in map creation. I don't think that point can be stressed quite enough. Also easy post-production editing of map dimensions, turning off resource flags, editing rivers in game, etc. It's difficult to advise when I don't know what you have in mind for the game. There was some cut and paste for civ2 city improvements (copy another cities improvements); whilst I doubt i'll make a scenario with 250+ cloned cities it would be useful to have the option there even if it was never used. This again argues in favour of an external program, which might be huge, but like the map editor, if you don't want you can simply delete it - thus saving valuable space.

To reiterate, the more comprehensive the better. Ease of use is IMO a secondary consideration to the effects. Just make sure whatever you make works as advertised.

Another must have is the freedom to edit any associations: don't hardcode so much. This is especially aggravating for tech slot functions and unit slot sound associations. Also unit slot functions as well, like no.9, no.10 and no.14 in Civ2 all have specific "functions".

The real handicap in scenario creation is working around the civ2 engine. Make it less obstructive.

Also programming: we have $STRINGs in the game.txt. It would be wonderful if we could change what they relate to.

Oh, and I like the text based information. I find it easy to locate and deal with. Again, more and more. Make AI strategies/goals more open to customization than just a simple expansionist/aggressive posture.

My vision for civ3 is that it is a game shell. The 4000BC to 2000AD game you produce will be one "scenario", rather than a game itself. Open it all up, and Civ3 will live forever. Why buy another TBS when you can make a Total Conversion for Civ3 into whatever you want.

Thanks for asking.

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The Historical Civ2 Site
http://members.nbci.com/HistCiv2/index.htm

"The man who can smile when things go wrong has thought of someone he can blame it on" - anon

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed" - President Eisenhower

"Treaties are like roses and pretty girls: they last while they last." - Charles de Gaulle
[This message has been edited by Andrew Livings (edited November 20, 2000).]

**Seeker** · November 20, 2000, 22:01

Dan: have you ever played Warlords II Deluxe? The scenario editor is a dream, it's simple, it's intuitive, and it's easy.

I would pay for a seperate scenario editor if it would give me more functionality.

**Captain Nemo** · November 20, 2000, 23:39

I have a worry that easy, simple editors will lead to cookie-cutter scenarios without much "soul".

Many of the Civ2 scenario makers ended up building their own editors to address the shortcomings of the built-in Civ2 editors. For myself, in 6 years of scenario building, I never used any of the "editor" functions included with FW or MPGE. It was always easier to edit the files and graphics directly.

There are now map editors, city editors, game file editors etc. available for Civ2. I think that type of add-on tools is more effective than the lump-sum package that ends up having too many limitations.

I have to agree with Andrew that far too many things were hardcoded in Civ2 and has forced us to really rack our brains to get around some of the limitations. ToT is a step in the right direction with more capabilities in the events structure.

I would like to see ALL graphics stored in separate files that can be edited rather than built into a .exe or .dll file as many were in Civ2.
All unit/improvement/tech functions, if Civ3 uses the same type of structure as Civ2, should be stored in a tabular format... For example sounds, text pop-ups, effects etc. should NOT be hardcoded to specific techs, units, improvements.

The "events" need to have much more flexibility, including having internal parameters and flags that can be set or stored in the game. Events should have access to more of the game parameters: For example know WHERE a unit was killed and be able to use those coordinates in formulas and triggered events... Really would like the events file to be more of a VB program?

Maybe the biggest shortcoming of Civ2 is the AIs ineptitude. If this is improved in Civ3 I would like to have access to the AIs algorithms for how "He" uses units, schedules production and sets goals. That may be asking for too much but is probably the area where most improvement is needed.

**DarthVeda** · November 21, 2000, 00:54

Ok, a (when was civ2 released?) 4? year veteran of scenario creation I have 10 scenarios under my belt with an eleventh (and probably my last for civ2) on the way (the last one has taken a year of work to produce).

Now the first and foremost thing that comes to my mind when I think of scenario creation is ease of use. While in-game editors are nice, they tend to, how shall I say "cramp the style" of some authors who would prefer to change the gameplay from civ-style to duke nukem. As Nemo said, we would end-up with "cookie cutter" scenarios as I felt SMAC was notorious for.

Civ2 sets the bar and maintains it for the necessity of easy access file formats. Test of Time is a model for the integration of sprite and bitmap technology. The player can override the sprites with a .bmp if necessary. It is vital that all game files dealing with text messages, unit/terrain/improvement statistics, unit graphics, be in a non-proprietary format (ie BMP, PNG, TGA, TXT, DOC, etc.)

They could be part of a larger bin file ala .wad and .pak files as long as all non-proprietary file formats have exploder/extractor programs for the authors to use.

For directional sprites, I cannot stress the necessity of being able to KISS (Keep it simple stupid). I do not have the time to draw 50,000 different unit facings and motions, nor do I have the hundred dollar rendering programs. 6 is to many, I would prefer one and more if I feel like it.

On to the next part... events

If I can turn civ into pac-man... you have it about right. (This is my dream scenario) I want absolute control of the game, I don't want there to be a SINGLE in-game action I can't duplicate, change, or control in some fashion. If I want to add new windows with new features, say, a whole new system for trading and remove the standard one, I'd want that. I know in the FPS games like Quake and Half-Life it is possible to modify .dll files and completely re-arrange the game. I would like this alot.

However, a happy medium would be a SLIC (see Ctp/Ctp2) like system with the option to create new triggers and actions based off class extensions (in C++, Java, whatever u guys are using) that the author can add in addition to default triggers and actions.

I agree with Nemo totally that the AI needs to be manipulated at a fundamental level so that the AI understands the "goals" and gameplay of an environment outside Normal civ.

Next... the map editor

The map editor has to be just that, no unit placement or such nonsense. A paintbrush style approach ala the civ2 mapeditor is preferable.

Next... the in-game editor

Civ2's only problem with the cheat menu was that it was excessively difficult to modify terrain at any kind of pace. It takes HOURS to place cities, improvements, etc. There needs to be a better way!

As for unit placement, the norm is acceptable.

Bringing it all together... what am I creating?

Well the obvious base for scenario design is World War II, ancient Rome, and WWIII scenarios. If the scenario engine can at least do these well, you're in the right direction.

However, there are some more interesting extensions. Say somebody wanted to create a colonization (the sid game) type scenario... that would require totally modifying some game aspects (especially trade).

Other scenarios are more RPG like in nature, it would be useful to have units that "evolve".

I would suggest the Civ3 team look at some more innovative/different civ2 scenarios like Red Front, Second Front, Shannara, Spartacus, my own Wing Commander scenario (yes it sucks, but I was limited by the dumb naval AI), Gang Wars, MicroProse's XCOM scenario, and there are a slew of other non-standard scenarios for civ2 that push the engine to its limits. (You can get the first three from http://csc.apolyton.net and my two you can get from my homepage at http://darthveda.tripod.com/scenarios.html) Civ2's main scenario design flaw was that most had to be conquest in nature and the authors were hard pressed to produce a scenario with other than a conquest victory.

O/T: Sorry about the advertising for my own scenarios, but I can't think of other non-standard scenarios I've played.

EDIT: I should also mention Mr. Temba's "Enemy of God" scenario in my non-usual category, along with the Pirate and Sacrificial Blood scenarios.
[This message has been edited by DarthVeda (edited November 20, 2000).]

**techumseh** · November 21, 2000, 01:24

I'm not so concerned with how the editors work, but what can be edited. I want to echo Andrew and Nemo's comments about less hardcoding. Push as many of the determining factors forward into editable files as possible. They don't all have to be in "idiot-proof" editors, either. There are many active civers who are capable programmers, hex editors, etc. They will create modifications and make them available for the rest of us, if the game is set up for it.

a)Units. Make every type of unit capable of transporting every other type of unit, depending on how the settings are changed. For example, a ground unit should be able to transport air units, and an air unit should be able to transport ground units. Don't place any artificial limits. But do allow the player to place limits. For example, one type of naval unit can be set to carry A and B type of air units, but the next type of naval unit can be set to carry only B type air units, etc. The number of each type carried should be set by the player independently as well. This change would allow the development of better naval (& space) and tactical scenarios. Until now scenario designers have had to use great ingenuity to get around built-in limitations, eg. Nemo's use of paratrooping ships as gliders in "Second Front."

b)Terrain. Allow maximum flexibility here too. Create a series of codes to create different movement capabilities for units on various types of terrain. In ToT there is an override which can given to any type of unit for travelling on prohibited terrain. Why not 8 kinds of prohibited terrain, each with its own override, so any particular unit could move on all types, one type, five or seven? Allow more than one type of ocean terrain too. ToT missed out on being the perfect Star Wars platform by not allowing a zero M.F. for ocean (hyperspace) terrain.

c) Improvements. All the factors affected by improvements and wonders should be programmable, eg. increase in shield production, trade, happiness, etc. Wonders should not automatically be limited to only one per game. Many is the time I wished I could use Leonardo's Workshop for more than one civ - it's a fabulous scenario tool.

d) Combat. Why does the elimination of the strongest unit in a stack result in the elimination of the entire stack? Why not allow the entire stack to total it's defensive or offensive strength? Or the two strongest units, or three? Make these variable, depending on the terrain, or the tech.

e) Animations. These seem to be required nowadays. Many of us have just turned our ToT animations off, since the can't be modified. Please make them simple, modifiable and non-proprietary. You don't need some sort of studio-in-the-box editor, either. There are a few hard core players out there who will make new units, even if it's not easy, and distribute them for the rest of us.

**techumseh** · November 21, 2000, 01:35

I forgot one thing. Everything should be modifiable in the scenario folder. ToT was a step backwards in this case, since some graphic files must be changed in the game directory to affect the appearance of the scenario. It would be nice if some of the dll. files (leader portraits) could be changed in the scenario folders, too.

**DarthVeda** · November 21, 2000, 03:09

How about an unlimited number of units, improvements, tiles, and whatnot so long as there are the graphics files and text descriptions to back them up

**ContradictioN** · November 21, 2000, 04:33

(Didn't read everyones post)

Whenever I wanted to make a scenario, I had to stop, because of the limitations. The biggest one I found was the fact you only had so many designs to choose from. Like, I wanted to have different looking cities for every civilization. I think that its important you allow for unlimited city designs. So that people like myself, can design hundreds of them, make the game look more interesting.

The other one is the fact you could be British and build Samurais!?! nononono....allow for complete control in what civs get what units and allow for unlimited types of units.

ok designing...um..as in photoshop, if you hold down the shift key it straightens it and you can pull it, etc, so I think thats a must, and I also think a fill option is a must, that would save a lot of time too.

**BeBMan** · November 21, 2000, 07:13

I agree with everyone who says that the editor should give us the chance to change as many aspects of the game as possible, under NO circumstances less options than in Civ2. The editors from Civ2 FW were not a bad start but they had too much limitations.

For me it isn´t important if we have an In-Game editor in Civ3 or an external one, the point is the quality of this editor. I think its a good idea to make an "all-in-one" editor that replaces the different FW editors. Exceptions may be a separate map editor or a separate animations editor. All other graphics should of course be editable by normal graphics software.

The editor should have options for events like the Starcraft editor Dan mentioned, because this is good for beginners, but experts should have the chance to edit the (text) files that contain events, unit values, the techtree and so on directly with a simple text editor.

More later...

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Civ2000

**Allard HS** · November 21, 2000, 07:43

As everyone seems to mention their scenario creation experience, I've had a number of years as well. I do not recall how many, and I'm sure nobody'll care, I myself least of all.

Anyway, I would like to make a few points very clear.

First of all the in-game tools as they are now in Civ2. They are excellent, and, though some functions can always be improved (such as easier in-game mapediting, or easier adding of units with NONE city ownership), not too much will need to be changed. The cheat-menu as such is of vital importance and excellent in its use.
The Editors menu, as in Fantastic Worlds, however, lack a lot of things. They are not very useful, and I doubt that any serious scenario editor makes frequent use of them (except maybe the events editor).
Why?
We have Paint Shop Pro, we have Notepad. Then why add an in-game unit designer that is hard to use? And instead of adding more functions for drawing units, please use your efforts on something else. Paint Shop Pro will always remain easier and better to use than any in-game editor. That's a fact.

So, what is needed is a simple yet effective in-game cheat menu, with all vital functions, and a lot of external elaborate easily changeable text files and simple graphics files.

Now, the next question is: What more to add?

- I could give a whole list of things to add, but it easiest to see what people have done so far in making external editors.
For instance, Jorrit Vermeiren recently finished an excellent mapeditor that has a lot of functions of which the official Mapeditor is incapable. This mapeditor is downloadable on this page: http://apolyton.net/civ2/files/Special/ (name of program "MapEdit", author "Jorrit Vermeiren"), together with some more excellent tools. These other tools are for example Gif Extractor, to extract GIFs from the various DLLs, and CivTweak, a program that allows more options for scenario editing.

- Closely examine the best scenarios available on the Internet. Most revolutionary of the recent scenarios are the scenarios by Captain Nemo. These are downloadable at the "CSC" http://csc.apolyton.net .
Captain Nemo is a master of adding things to civ2 that are not normally possible. Some examples: amphibious tanks, paradropping gliders with parachuters inside. A lot more stuff is possible in civ2, such as underwater cities, mega-cities of a few cities directly next to each other (via hex-editing) and more.
I thing that by giving 15 minutes of examining of Captain Nemo's scenarios, Firaxis could have a pretty decent idea of what is needed in scenario editing, and I think that that is much better than to ask us for a list of ideas, of which only a few will be used.

- I would estimate that about 90% of all scenarios produced are more or less Historical. Have a look at the CSC, http://csc.apolyton.net , and you'll see so: a lot of Historical scenarios, very few fictional scenario.
As you can clearly see, the 19/20th Century is most popular, then Classical times, then the Middle Ages.
Also, hardly any scenarios at all are "build-from-scratch" scenarios, but rather scenarios where the whole world is already standing, and it's up to the player to take over command from famous generals.
Because of all this, the scenarios that came with Fantastic Worlds were much less popular than the scenarios that came with Conflicts in Civilization, which were mostly war-scenarios.

**Gothmog** · November 21, 2000, 08:45

The point about non-proprietary formats is well taken. Most of the people who have posted here have gone well beyond the bounds of typical scenario editing and will probably continue to do. That's part of the fun of it.
Another important point is what can be edited. Things like units, wonders, improvements need to have more customizable attributes. Focusing on what the editors look like igores this very important issue.

Finally whatever in-game interface is created, make sure it has no bugs. Most of us continued to use notepad when we realized that the FW editor could destroy the rules.txt.

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Civ3 editing tools: what do you want to see

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