Civ III Site Updated

[Jarouik]

Regarding colonies' being upgraded to actual cities: while it might make some historical sense, I believe it wouldn't play too well. After all, you place colonies on top of a certain special resource you want to have access to; if you had the possibility of the colony later growing into a city, you would also have to consider whether the location of the colony is ideal for a city with its 21-square-radius. You might establish colonies in very haphazard patterns, close to each other etc., according to the squares which have special resources, so they would make horrible city locations.

If you really want to have a city just on that special resource tile your colony is on, you can always send a settler and found a city there - colonies themselves growing might indeed contribute to ICS and result in cities in poor locations, although even that might be historically accurate

quote: Anyway the possibility of colony-abuse still exist, I guess. Perhaps they should are tweak it so they only can harvest special resources - not standard resources.

I believe that colonies already only give you access to special resources, and standard resources are harvested the same way as ever: by assigning your people to city tiles. Although it might be possible that the production of the square the colony is on is added to the production of the home city of the worker that founded the colony (the way SMAC's Supply Crawlers do, if I recall correctly), if that were the case, then colonies' disappearing as your borders expand to them absolutely would not make sense, as it would cause you to lose some production!

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: Originally posted by aCa on 05-14-2001 10:29 AM Here he say that the city radius WILL expand. What more proof do you guys need?

Yes, it seems to me too that city start with 9 square (8+city place) and grow at least till 21 square. The mini tutorial/slide show on official site show it so clearly I can't imagine another meaning of Dan info.

quote: Oh! Another thought. It might be cool to be able to name your little colonies.

Indeed! I would like to consider Sid's Railroad Tycoon way to automatically propose name generated from original city and surrounding geographical elements (e.g. "Rome Coal mine" or "Badlands Oil wells"). A rename ability will let anyone happy, I hope

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Jarouik]

quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith on 05-15-2001 03:51 AM Yes, it seems to me too that city start with 9 square (8+city place) and grow at least till 21 square. The mini tutorial/slide show on official site show it so clearly I can't imagine another meaning of Dan info.

Please, read what what we have pointed out above regarding the borders, which indeed expand but only matter when it comes to special resource availability, and city areas, which don't depend on borders...

(Note that, in the first picture, the city does not create any borders at all... but you can still work the squares in the 21-square radius, as Dan has said.)

[Harlan]

Regarding Colonies turning into new towns, here's my take. One doesn't want the actual Colony to become a new town, cos one doesn't want many new towns to be formed directly on top of special resources. Near, for instance a nearby port or river, yes, but not smack directly on top. On the other hand, it is a bummer to lose a population and have all the work disappear into the ether when the city radius catches up to it.

Solution? When a city radius comes to encompass a Colony, have the Colony instantly convert into the most relevant and useful tile improvement. For instance, if you've put a colony on an Iron spot, have it turn into a Mine. This makes much more sense than having the Colony disappear completely into unused land, just because a nearby town is expanding. Also, this would help make Colonies turn into new towns. Because, for far away but good special resources, you'd want to establish a Colony ASAP to help your already strong towns. Then later, when you have a chance, you can settle a new town a square or two from that special resource, and you instantly have a very productive special resource square already working for you. Nearby special resources you wouldn't want to start a new town with, since you know a nearby city radius will eventually catch up to it.

Makes sense to me . Without doing it this way, the rules would tend to discourage starting new towns near far off special resources, since your work gets wiped out.

And by the way, big thumbs up on the Colony idea generally.

[Quartz Dragon]

quote: Originally posted by bagdar on 05-13-2001 01:58 AM That means the unhappiness/units-out-of-the-city relation in Democracy has changed, has it not?

Remember in Civ 2 fortified units in fortresses did not cause unhappiness

[Quartz Dragon]

quote: Originally posted by ChrisShaffer on 05-14-2001 01:34 PM aCa, he didn't say the city radius expands. He said: which is how it worked in Civ, Civ2, and SMAC. The larger your population, the more city tiles you can work. This has nothing to do with the city radius - you still get to place workers within the standard 21 square layout.

That can be interpreted in many different ways

[Ralf]

OK, heres a summarized version, as I have understood it:

There are now two types of resource-collecting models to consider in Civ-3. Firstly, we have the old standard city-area version:
[*] Fixed 21-square city-areas - they work exactly as in Civ-2. [*] They are called city-areas because harvested basic resources is available to that city only. [*] Basic resources (= foods, shields & trades) can ONLY be harvested from within fixed 21-square city-areas. [*] The available tiles you have access to DONT expand in steps, from 9 and upwards. Instead: as long as the map is uncovered, you are free to pick-and-choose what tile/tiles you should harvest on foods, shields & trades, from the very start - depending on your pop-points: exactly as you did in Civ-2 & SMAC.

Secondly, we have the new "cultural border/special resource" model:
[*] Gradually expanding border-areas. Expands depending on culture-level in cities.[*] Special resources (like iron) can ONLY be harvested, if A: city-connected by road, and B: within expanding culture-borders, or alternatively C: outside the expanding culture-border IF underneath a 1-square colony AND the colony is road-connected to a city. Just 21-square coverage is not enough (and not needed). [*] ANY city within your empire, that is connected to that special resource by roads (ocean-lanes, flight-routes?) have also free access to that unique resource.

Below touches both basic- and special resources:
[*] If a tile (harvested, or not) is inside your culture-borders, a foreign civ cannot overtake that tile without act-of-war consequences. [*] If, however a tile (harvested, or not) is outside your culture-borders, a foreign Civ are free to overtake that tile without it being considered as an act-of-war, by the other civs. You may still be pissed off and declare war against that civ, of course. But in terms of Civ-diplomacy; YOU is then considered the aggressor - not that other Civ.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 15, 2001).]

[m_m_x]

i like the new irrigation graphic
it looks so real!!!great job on that!!
but the trees graphic still ugly!!

[Father Beast]

My take on this, and I think it was explained well in the slideshow:

There are 2 things we are talking about. 1: city radius. 2: culture radius.
Don't get them mixed up.

in the beginning, you have no culture, and your culture radius does not extend outside your city square. that doesn't mean that your citizens cannot work the tiles outside the city square, just can't access the rersources. as you develop culture, your culture radius expands, and you can use resources within your culture radius connected by a road.

to use a resource outside of your culture radius, you can use a worker to build a colony, which will then supply the resource (not the tile production) if the colony is connected by a road. Obviously, you can use the worker to build the road on the way there.

as I understand it, you can move your citizens round your city radius at will, but even if they're working a square with a special resource, you won't get the benefit of the resource unless it is (a). within your culture radius and connnected by road to your city, or (b). covered by a colony connected by a road to your city.

The balance seems simple to me. if you don't like losing your worker, you don't have to build a colony. If your culture radius is about to expand, you might want to not build your colony and save your worker. it seems one of those choices sid regularly throws at us.

Of course, you don't have to have culture, either. you can just recklessly expand, and use masses of colonies to get your resources to you. it's always an option, but the disadvantages are clear, also.

the one thing that isn't clear to me, is how do you connect resources on the other side of a river? do you have to wait until bridge building to get them?
[This message has been edited by Father Beast (edited May 15, 2001).]

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 05-15-2001 02:59 PM OK, heres a summarized version, as I have understood it: Below touches both basic- and special resources: [*] If a tile (harvested, or not) is inside your culture-borders, a foreign civ cannot overtake that tile without act-of-war consequences. [*] If, however a tile (harvested, or not) is outside your culture-borders, a foreign Civ are free to overtake that tile without it being considered as an act-of-war, by the other civs. You may still be pissed off and declare war against that civ, of course. But in terms of Civ-diplomacy; YOU is then considered the aggressor - not that other Civ. [This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 15, 2001).]

Ok, you are right, now I understand better. Thanks!

On Firaxis site, I noticed also that

quote: Finally, resources and luxuries can be traded with other civs if the goods are connected to your capital via road, airport, or harbor

To me it seems the death of Camel (caravan), replaced by a national trade screen: what's the point to bring all goods to capitol, otherwise?

[Father Beast]

quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith on 05-16-2001 09:57 AM To me it seems the death of Camel (caravan), replaced by a national trade screen: what's the point to bring all goods to capitol, otherwise?

DANG! Matthew will be upset to hear that.
and so am I. I like setting up my trade routes, although it can be a pain to spend a hundred years moving my camel somewhere, the AC model failed to turn me on.

[Ralf]

quote: "Finally, resources and luxuries can be traded with other civs if the goods are connected to your capital via road, airport, or harbor." Adm. Naismith: To me it seems the death of Camel (caravan), replaced by a national trade screen: what's the point to bring all goods to capitol, otherwise?"

Good observation! We are still speculating here, of course - but, I must concede that your assumption seems rather probable. In Civ-2 one was forced to herde buckloads of camels accross the map (= too tiresome), and in SMAC it was enough just to make contact with a faction-specific city, with any unit, and you instantely got full trade-access to that faction (= too easy). I really hope they find a well-balanced middleground trade-solution in Civ-3.

Anyway I hope you are right about the "trade-screen replaces camel" assumption. A trade-screen is much more flexible, more AI-friendly, and it allows more spinn-off economical war effects, like monopolys, protectionism, ...

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 16, 2001).]

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith on 05-16-2001 09:57 AM To me it seems the death of Camel (caravan), replaced by a national trade screen: what's the point to bring all goods to capitol, otherwise?

I suggest that you read the new Gamespot preview. Heres one interesting quote.

"Trade was really abstract in the two [previous Civilization] games," Briggs said. "You would build caravans and move them yourself from city to city, moving them in the right place. I thought that was cumbersome." To change all of that, Firaxis is implementing two types of resources--luxury items and strategic resources -"

My underlining. So the camel IS Killed - its confirmed. Now, the wheeling and dealing with those luxery items & strategic recources must of course be handled within some appropriate trade-screen, I assume...

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 16, 2001).]

[Ralf]

Doublepost. Sorry!
[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 16, 2001).]

[Father Beast]

there's a couple of things I'm still wondering about.

1. Rivers. If a resource is within your cultural borders, but across the river from your city, and you haven't discovered bridge building, does that mean you can't access that resource?
Come to think of it, what about the cities you can't connect by road to your capitol, because of a river in the way. they can't trade?

2. War. If you're at war with another civ, can they interfere with your special resource gathering by standing on it, or standing on the road, since the road seems so important to this process?
do you have to defend your colony? can enemy troops attack your resource gathering colony and destroy it? would it have the defense of a worker?, or that of an undefended city, where a unit can just walk in and get rid of it?


Just wondering...