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A way to implement "cold war" into Civ3

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  • A way to implement "cold war" into Civ3

    Let's admit it, the nuclear weapons in Civ 2 did not command a much of a fear and deterrent as they do in real life. I have a suggestion to give nuclear weapons in Civ 3 more of a fear and cold war effect to them.

    Well, Civ 2 did not really make use of ICBMs (Intercontinental Ballistic Missles). Instead Civ 2 mostly used tactical nukes or nukes you specifically tell what to do each turn, and there was also the ability to place a nuke using a spy. But the real fear comes from ICBMs.
    I suggested adding an ICBM unit to civ 2.
    Here's how it would work:
    Assign it a target.
    The ICBM would have a command allowing you to assign a specific tile for it to attack. It would then retain this tile in memory till your ready to use it.
    Nuclear War
    Somewhere in Civ 3 there should be a command to allow you to lauch your all your preset ICBM's. This is where the cold war idea comes in. All other Civs would have the option to launch their preset ICBMs in retaliation (even before your make another move). In a similar manner if someone else uses nuclear weapons you would immediately have the option to launch your preset ICBMs on them before they can make another move. Thus, things would take on a true nuclear war with all sides incurring casualties.
    Give it 0 movement points
    Since the ICBM is not a regular unit, it has no movement points. To load it into a submarine you would move the sub into the city and load it on (like you can in Civ 2). To move to another city, there should be a unit that can do the same thing -- as well as an aircraft that can transport them as well).
    Attack Order
    There should be an order where you can tell a single ICBM to attack a location on the map instead of having to launch all your preset ICBMs. The enemy would of course detect it and have the option to retalitate with all their forces of ICBMs before your turn is over.
    Missle Silos
    Using your worker units you should be able to build silos anywhere you want and thus transport ICBMs to them for keeping till you use them (if ever).
    Other Nuke Options
    1. There would still be the regular old nukes in Civ 3 like there was in Civ 2 -- nukes that have move points as well as using nukes via a spy.
    2. Thes other nukes cannot be detected upon launch or anything because they're not big and noticeable like ICBMs. However, once you hit a civ with one of these alternative nukes, the enemy should have an option to strike you with their ICBM arsinal before the turn is over (and of course you can respond in the same as can other civs). Thus, this would deter you from even using other types of nukes.
    3. When a spy hits a city with a nuke, there should be a chance that the other civ did not detect your spy and thus cannot tell who did it.
    Neutron Bomb
    The neutron bomb would be a nice third type of nuclear weapon (perhaps in regular form AND ICBM form). The neutron bomb just kills lifeforms, but doesn't touch structures.

    Options
    Any time the message pops up asking if you want to launch your ICBM arsenal, you should also have a list of check boxes for the countries you want to attack. For example if you have some ICBMs targeted at Russia and some targeted at China, you can just put a check beside Russia to have those targeted at Russia to fire.

    So, as you can see, basically the idea is to have a true cold war kind of feel with nuclear weapons and the result of using them can have drastic consequences.

    Here's a possible idea:








    Russia has been detected lauching ICBMs.
    Do you wish to launch your ICBM arsenal?





    (embassy)
    -->

    The first detected Russian missiles will arrive in 15 minutes.
    But be warned, if you chose to contact them, there may be some undetect missiles that may hit sooner!



    (yes)

    |
    V

     

    (Launch)
    |
    |
    |
    |
    |
    |
    <---------













    15 minutes till first Russian ICBM strikes

    Which countries would you like to strike?
     You have the following countries targeted:
    Russia (19 ICBMs - 3 neutron)
    China (10 ICBMs - 0 neutron)
    Spain (3 ICBMs - 5 neutron)
     
    Open Diplomacy channels after launch.


     

    [This message has been edited by Kevin Ar18 (edited April 21, 2001).]
    Last edited by Kevin Ar18; May 28, 2001, 17:54.

  • #2
    html seemed to not take too well
    Got it fixed....
    [This message has been edited by Kevin Ar18 (edited April 21, 2001).]

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    • #3
      Great idea! I really like it. Then if all the superpowers destroy one another simultaneously with their ICBMs, some lowly little outlying tribe walks in and takes over the world!

      (Impressive graphics in your post! Must have taken some doing...)

      [This message has been edited by Ilkuul (edited April 21, 2001).]
      Ilkuul

      Every time you win, remember: "The first shall be last".
      Every time you lose, remember: "The last shall be first".

      Comment


      • #4
        I'd love to see MAD in Civ. The nuclear volleys in CivII were completely out of whack. A tricky issue would be actually getting the AI to skirt that fine line of being aggressive but not stupid, or being too passive like CTP2. Good luck to Firaxis on that one. Nukes in CivII and SMAC were handled too much as regular units. You are right in that they need to have their own rules/capabilities.

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        • #5
          Take a look at this long post by Korn469:
          http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000323.html#24
          There's a lot of suggestions in that one post.
          However, the one thing I'd really like to see (and the reason for this thread) is that cold war kind of feel with nuclear missiles I outlined and as korn469 briefly mentioned.

          The issues brought up in that other thread concerning the devastation a nuclear missile (ICBM) would do is also something else that should be of concern. It might be actually quite interesting to plunge the world into an apocolypse as a result of nuclear weapons (like you see in movies of what happened after a nuclear war). Thus, mass use of ICBMs would really be something to be wary of (like they should be).

          Comment


          • #6
            In addition to storing missiles in missile silos, you should also be able to place them in submarines. Then when you give the launch order they will launch, of course.

            Again the ICBMs would have 0 move points because they only go somewhere where you give the launch order.
            (You would have to transport them with vehicles to their missile silos or a naval city for loading in subs).

            Comment


            • #7
              Hmm! This is one impressive well-prepared post! But the hour is late (over here) so I come back later!

              Comment


              • #8
                I love it!!!

                This would be very perfect for civ3!!!!!

                Very good ideas, and I hope that FIRAXIS has the same idea!!!

                Again, very well done!!!
                "What is the Matrix?" -Neo
                "The Matrix is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth." -Morpheus [The Matrix]

                Comment


                • #9
                  I love it, the only problem is could you program the AI to understand that if it launches so will you?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    One thing that everyone seems to agree on is that there should be an autolaunch feature. I hope this happens.
                    Also when it looks like realations between you and another civ are going south you could sign a pack of no using nuclear weapons. So that way you would be fighting a war without nukes and if someone voilated the treaty and used them anyway there would be all sorts of penitalies with other civs. Like trade sanastions.

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                    • #11
                      I like it. Kind of like the CTP2 idea but better. I like the time factor.
                      Destruction is a lot easier than construction. The guy who operates a wrecking ball has a easier time than the architect who has to rebuild the house from the pieces.--- Immortal Wombat.

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                      • #12
                        I love these ideas

                        but i have to go
                        i will talk later
                        And God said "let there be light." And there was dark. And God said "Damn, I hate it when that happens." - Admiral

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                        • #13
                          The problem with civ2 was that it treated nukes just like any other weapon - except more powerful. Once the war started, there was no restraint, not even a chance at a truce amid the carnage. Well, okay, that's realistic, but not fun.

                          The trick is to make the AI understand what balance means. In the real world, nuclear weapons have only been used once partially because of the public opprobrium, the moral outrage against them (at least in the West, less so in the Soviet bloc). Moral qualms had a big part in avoiding armageddon, especially during the Cuban missile crisis.

                          Getting the AI to understand and practise moral restraint could be difficult.

                          A good idea would be to implement the Armageddon Clock in the game. As a conventional war got hotter, or an atrocity was committed, it would tick closer to midnight, until finally an AI player would snap and then everyone would launch missiles.

                          Poof.

                          "Bend Over.
                          Place your head between your legs.
                          And kiss your goodbye."

                          Then you can play the Mad Max scenario.
                          :::Krypter:::
                          Sic Semper Tyrannis

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Great ideas, love 'em all.

                            And since we're talking of neuclear weapons on subs, the neuclear subs should be independant of cities, just in case the city is taken. We've all seen the movies, and some of that is based partly on fact, isn't it? What'd be cool is if all your cities are taken, but you still have a couple of rouge neuclear subs with a few ICBMs aboard. You'd still be a viable power. Now only if your sub crew could occupy a city...

                            Ioanes
                            Visit My Crappy Site!!!!
                            http://john.jfreaks.com
                            -The Artist Within-

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by manofthehour
                              I love it, the only problem is could you program the AI to understand that if it launches so will you?
                              Yeah, that would be pretty easy to program into the AI.

                              And as Krypter brought up, just when would the AI determine enough is enough and launch their missiles?

                              Well here's some ideas:


                              When does the AI decide enough is enough?

                              When you attack something important to them.
                              Say you attack an ally that is very important to them. It would have to be a war where they feel very threatened and fear you would gain a huge advantage if you won it.
                              When they are losing in a war to you
                              If the AI sees they are losing in a war to you and that will very likely be conquered, they may decide to launch since they have little to lose anyways.
                              Only the most peaceful of Civs would not launch their nuclear arsinal if they were about to die (they probably wouldn't even have one to start with).
                              Trigger Happy Civs
                              Maybe there are some trigger happy Civs in there - like the ones with the expansionistic, militarisitic policy (whatever is the most extreme of AI types in CivIII). These might be ready to shoot off their missiles at the slightest attack from you. If there's any war between these gusy it would be a nuclear war first and what's left later. These kinds of Civs you would really be locked in a cold war with, without much a chance to conquer them.


                              Ok, well maybe these are not the best instances of when an AI should attack, but it's a start.

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