Dear god, the auto workers are coming!

[Mister Pleasant]

Criminey, its time to herd units (much like herding cats). And the workers take a pop off the city that builds them? Even the SMAC terraformers didn't do that! Does it really take a whole pop point to build a damn road? (Especially over a twenty-five year period at the beginning of a game). Activision may not be capable of writing an AI that works, but many of their ancillary improvements were vast improvements over civ2. This news has chilled some of my enthusiasm for the game. But I guess I'll just have to remove the silly pop loss from the rules. But as long as the AI can keep up all will be forgiven.

[Par4]

Maybe they'll have a decent queue system so I can have maybe 3 former guys for each couple cities, 1 doing farms, 1 doing irrigation, 1 doing roads and other stuff until they are done which will take many turns since they'll be assigned to a queue.

LONG LIVE PUBLIC WORKS!!!!!!

FIRAXIS!!!!!!!!!

[Henrik]

I never played ctp, my first impression is that this is something good...
But as I said I never played a game whit pw so I don't have something to relate to...
The important thing is (as have been pointed out above) the AI, if I can trust the computer to manage my worker units for me when my empire gets big then it's no problem (the AI controlled players would ofcourse have to be as good at it).

[EnochF]

quote: Trade only increases from roads if they connect somewhere, not if they go round and round

Roads do connect "somewhere." They connect outlying regions to your city center. Thus, farmers and miners in that square can more easily bring their surplus into your marketplace. Note: A road cannot generate extra trade unless one of your citizens is working the square.

Other notes:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have never considered roads in every tile an "eyesore." I am quizzically amused at the prospect of players petitioning Firaxis to deprive me of my trade bonus because of their aesthetic taste.

Engineers (Workers) are highly preferable when compared to Public Works. Players who disagree are welcome to continue playing the Call to Power series. This is a turn-based game. It's not a real-time wargame where civilized expansion can at times be a distraction when the player's attention is absorbed by military ventures. In Civ III, eliminating builder units in favor of Public Works would have been just as silly as eliminating military units in favor of a War Fund.

[MarkG]

quote: Originally posted by EnochF on 04-07-2001 02:21 AM This is a turn-based game. It's not a real-time wargame where civilized expansion can at times be a distraction when the player's attention is absorbed by military ventures. In Civ III, eliminating builder units in favor of Public Works would have been just as silly as eliminating military units in favor of a War Fund.

being a turn-based games doesnt mean that you have to spent half your time on moving units around or waiting for automated units to stop running around. in the sense that you put it, there should be no automated-workers feature cause it would take from the "building" fun of the game!

of course an worker unit adds more depth in the strategy part(pillaging etc), but i hope we will not end up with the problems of civ2 and smac.

imran, with pw you can micromanage all you want. it's a matter of choice whether or not you are going to build on road each turn or wait a few turns and build more....

[Zanzin]

At the end of day, a public works system has more pros than cons, the benifits easily outweighing a worker unit system. I find it amazing that Firaxis can't understand this. Are they afraid to borrow from CTP1/2 because of Activisions lawyers?? C'mon guys - they stole the SMAC borders for CTP2 - they owe you!

I can't really begin to express what a backward step I feel this "worker unit" is.

[My Wife Hates CIV]

For the automated settler/engineer units...

perhaps a text file (something like the rules.txt file) for the automated settings. Here you could set what the priority should be. What to build first and on what type of land. With a in game menu you could set special case stuff. Something like connect cities with roads/rail. Of course with a in game menu you could forget the text file and control the automated stuff as the game continues.

[Imran Siddiqui]

quote: imran, with pw you can micromanage all you want. it's a matter of choice whether or not you are going to build on road each turn or wait a few turns and build more....

Yeah, but it felt so... distant. And many times I forgot it was even there. I really didn't like it too much. I like the terraformers in SMAC better, you knew when they were done, 'cause they'd come on your unit list .

[Lancer]

I like the workers because they can be killed or protected. PW is nice because it's easier. In the end I'll go w/ workers, because easier in this instance detracts from game play in my opinion. In real life roads are not dropped from the sky, they are built by workers. Those workers represent an investment in population and expense. I hope they gain staus too, like veteran workers who are expert at what they do and do it faster than green workers.

You see a road drop from the sky and I'll rethink my position, until then, I am a worker, I've built or repaired lots of stuff (draw the line at cleaning up polution) and I like to be represented on the board. Now if we could just get armored cavalry... I know, the tank units.

[raingoon]

No Public Works? Thank you, thank you!!! What a horrendous, abhorrant, HORRID gameplay idea PW was. Managing your empire is not a spreadsheet activity requiring "efficiency", it's a gameplay activity, requiring (wait for it) high stakes! With settler/builder units you actually have something at stake on the game map. You have costs to consider. PW took away my sense of accomplishment when I finally built that trans-continental railroad, etc. Truly one of the reasons I never fell in love with Call to Power, and believe me I tried, was PW. Sweet Sid! Praise Jesus! Glory-Glory! and Happy New Year!

[connorkimbro]

I agree that at times, managing lots of settlers can be a time consuming when you just want to get to that battle on the other side of the world. HOWEVER, that, IMO, is better than public works as implemented by activision. SO, Firaxis, keep it up! Just make sure the game is fun!

how about, you can queue orders to the workers so you don't have to tell them what to do EVERY time they finish a job? hmm?

[Mister Pleasant]

I feel the need to respond to some of the objections to PW. Here it goes.
(1) Granted, Lancer, roads don't fall from the sky. But then again, does it matter if work crews are represented by units or a PW fund? After all, scientific discoveries and engineering blueprints do not fall from the sky, but I don't hear you clamouring for scientist units.
(2) Activision stole the whole damn game concept. Firaxis should not feel bad about borrowing one of activision's innovations. Besides, if CTPII had a worthy AI it owuld have been a damn fine game.
(3) High stakes?!? Had you payed attention when playing CTP1 or 2, Raingoon, you might have noticed the burdensome costs of developing squares. Believe me, you dreaded the AI pillaging fisheries, advanced mines, or hydroponic farms.
(4) The AI has real trouble pathfinding development-type units. Just watch SMAC terraformers. PW eliminated those problems. It would be a real shame to give up that "feeling of accomplishment" for something as minor as a challenging computer opponent. The same points were made during an earlier discussion about the pathfinding for settler-type units. Unburden the AI.
(5) I hate moving tons of developer-types, building roads, building irrigation, followed by farms and railroads. It detracts from the game, does not expand on possible actions one iota, and Zanzin has it right. Worker units instead of public works is like transistors instead of ICs - a giant step backwards.

[Roman]

quote: Originally posted by Mister Pleasant on 04-07-2001 07:37 AM (1) Granted, Lancer, roads don't fall from the sky. But then again, does it matter if work crews are represented by units or a PW fund? After all, scientific discoveries and engineering blueprints do not fall from the sky, but I don't hear you clamouring for scientist units.

As far as realism is concerned; the problem with the PW fund is that you can accumulate PW points. Since by far the biggest input into real-life public works is labour; this is essentially equivalent to stacking labour, which obviously cannot be done.

quote: (2) Activision stole the whole damn game concept. Firaxis should not feel bad about borrowing one of activision's innovations. Besides, if CTPII had a worthy AI it owuld have been a damn fine game.

Perhaps they could 'borrow' the PW concept, but why? I don't think it is superior.

quote: (3) High stakes?!? Had you payed attention when playing CTP1 or 2, Raingoon, you might have noticed the burdensome costs of developing squares. Believe me, you dreaded the AI pillaging fisheries, advanced mines, or hydroponic farms.

Well, this may be true, but I think what Lancer meant is that in Ctp you don't need to protect your building capabilities. Moreover, I hate the fact that in Ctp you can only build tile improvements in your own borders. What if you want to help your allied neigbour develop, or build engeneering works to support your advancing army?

quote: (4) The AI has real trouble pathfinding development-type units. Just watch SMAC terraformers. PW eliminated those problems. It would be a real shame to give up that "feeling of accomplishment" for something as minor as a challenging computer opponent. The same points were made during an earlier discussion about the pathfinding for settler-type units. Unburden the AI.

Firaxis said that this issue has already been solved and units now have 100% perfect pathfinding.

quote: (5) I hate moving tons of developer-types, building roads, building irrigation, followed by farms and railroads. It detracts from the game, does not expand on possible actions one iota, and Zanzin has it right. Worker units instead of public works is like transistors instead of ICs - a giant step backwards.

I disagree. In Ctp I always forgot to build public works, since I did not have a unit "flashing" when it finished its job as in Civ2. Furthermore, I think workers do not add so much to micromanagement at all. With PW you still have to place the tile improvements on individual tiles and with workers you even have hotkeys to accomplish this, which means less mouse clicks.

[Steve Clark]

quote: Originally posted by Eli on 04-06-2001 07:54 PM They can improve it as much as they want to but I will NEVER EVER give the AI to decide on such issues.

My sentiments exactly. You guys are fools if you trust the AI to do anything in which you can do better. The key, though, is to balance micromanagement with playability; but in a game like this, you better be paying attention to your units instead of playing lazy.

[MarkG]

Lancer

quote: In real life roads are not dropped from the sky, they are built by workers.

and tanks are not being built with a single order, you have to have factories and iron etc. i dont see you complaining about the lack of realism in this part of the game

Roman

quote: this is essentially equivalent to stacking labour, which obviously cannot be done.

while changing production from tanks to a bank and only loosing a part of your "shields" is extremely realistic....

quote: What if you want to help your allied neigbour develop, or build engeneering works to support your advancing army?

that's an improvement to the system that could be done.

quote: Firaxis said that this issue has already been solved and units now have 100% perfect pathfinding.

let me see it first and then i'll believe

quote: In Ctp I always forgot to build public works, since I did not have a unit "flashing" when it finished its job as in Civ2

one of the small mods using slic adds a warning box when you have too much pw points. is that all?

quote: with workers you even have hotkeys to accomplish this, which means less mouse clicks

dont forget that you have to order them to move where you want them first, wait until they get there etc....

raingoon

quote: PW took away my sense of accomplishment when I finally built that trans-continental railroad, etc

have you ever stopped spending pw points while waiting to discover railroad, and when you do to upgrade your "trans-continental road" to a "trans-continental railroad" in one turn? that is an accomplishment


remember people: just because a game is different, it doesnt mean that it cant be fun in a different way than what you are used to....