left-over shields and bottles

[Vrank Prins]

Whether it’s a city-improvement or unit, something rather strange happens when you finish building it. You loose all the shields which are in account and nothing is left over. The building of a temple takes 160 shields. When you’re producing 34 shields per turn it takes you 5 terms to build it. But 5 x 34 = 170. When you’ve finished the temple there are no 10 shields left over in the “shieldbox”in the city-screen. They’re just gone. You always start building something new with a clean slate. No plus, and, actually when I come to think of it now while writing this, no minus either.
And the same goes for the “production” of civil advances/sciences.

And that’s strange. In the granarybox all production is neatly added up. You don’t have to set an explicit goal like in civil advancement and city-improvement. It is production without that, no production when reaching a new level (city seize) is ever lost, as if populationgrow just happens.
But then again, and that’s my point, why not have “left-over” production in civil advancement and city-improvement which is used for the next thing coming. 5 x 34 – 160 = 10 left-over shields. And all left-vers from several building projects may add up that much together, that it could mean that after having completed a project the shieldbox maybe that filled, that the next project may only take one turn to build.
It could increase over-all production by 5 to 10 %. And that’s 2 or 3 new ?! city-improvements, or 4 or 5 units, or 7 or 8 new ?! civil advancements/sciences.

[SerapisIV]

I like the idea of recycling. But until its discovery, or something like it, you should keep some of the extra shields but lose a portion of the extra shields to waste.

What about units that cost 30 (spys) and you have a 60+ shield city? Do you produce two at once?

[airdrik]

If a build queue is used (which I believe it will, someone back me up on this) then as I said before, all extra sheilds will go directly to the next item in the queue. If the queue is empty, then it will notify you saying "the build queue for x city is empty. If you don't select something for them to build, then the production for this turn will be wasted"

[Wittlich]

Airdrik, I too, for some reason, believe that the build queue will be incorporated into Civ3...but I don't remember where or when I heard this, or why I have this impression.

[Ilkuul]

I like this general idea of not letting leftover shields etc. go to waste; but I'm not familiar with this idea of a build queue. Can someone enlighten me?

And as Serapis said earlier,

quote: What about units that cost 30 (spys) and you have a 60+ shield city? Do you produce two at once?

Would this be solved by a build queue? What's the difference between a build queue and the 'autobuild' option in Civ1/2?

[SerapisIV]

What's auto-build?

No one's mentioned left-over lab beakers. I like the current way that those beakers are rolled over into the new research, but I remember hearing on past posts that any left-over beakers for an individual city were wasted. I hope this doesn't occur.

What about a research queue? Though I gues blind-research (which will most likely be at least an option as in SMAC) negates this option.

[jglidewell]

You should have left over, until the discovery of 'recycle'

[- Groucho -]

quote: Originally posted by Ilkuul on 04-09-2001 05:48 PM I like this general idea of not letting leftover shields etc. go to waste; but I'm not familiar with this idea of a build queue. Can someone enlighten me?

A build queue is just a list of stuff you want a city to build after it finishes whatever it is currently working on. SO if Madrid is building a settler you can set its queue so that it will build a temple next, then a phalanx, followed by a granary etc. SMAC has them and I find them pretty useful.

Of course, instead of wasting shields, in SMAC I often end up with extra units because I queued too many up (esp. near the end of a war). I then have this big army with nothing to do. It seems like such a waste to disband it sooooooo ... I kill all my neighbours with it. Once again, another game where I promised myself I would transcend degenerates into a bloodbath with me doing my best Miriam impression as I chase the remnants of Zhakarov's researchers around the continent. Sigh.

- Echinda

[airdrik]

If they are using any sort of building queue, then the extra sheild problem will be solved (if there are extra sheilds then they just go to the next item in the list). As for the beakers, it does this somewhat in that it checks for the advance as it manages your cities at the beginning of the turn, all cities after the one discovering the advance contribute to the next advance.

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV on 04-09-2001 01:56 PMWhat about units that cost 30 (spys) and you have a 60+ shield city? Do you produce two at once?

Just a bit of calculus.
If you're shieldproduction is 60+ and you would choose to produce a spy, the next turn you're shieldbox will be filled with 60 - 30 = 30 shields, that is within CIV-II terms. For the next turn you will have 30 + 60 = 90 shields at your disposal.

I like the idea of turning out 2 units within one turn. In wartime (and also peacetime, what about two pioneers or settlers) that could be pretty useful. If there are that much resources at hand why not be able to use them fully.
It should be given as a choice to do so, and shouldn't be something which happens automatically.

Allthough it is of topic the idea brought the next thought to my mind.
Having the choice to build two units within one term would also include the possibility (though I think productionconditions won't be that good that such an event will ever appear in the game and most certainly not in the endgame) to build a library and a temple, or maybe even two temple's or two libraries, whatever !! within one term.
Strange notion though, though not unreal. Why not have the possibility to have a city with two cathedrals or universities or factories . . . The effect of two similar city-improvements within one city shouldn't be double but threefold. Cities could become real specialized with that feature.

Maybe when economics is developed you could choose to capitalize those shield.
Or with somekind of governmentsytem to be turned over to other cities to support them, or support of the poor in your own city with civil unhappiness or uproar.

Though, I must say, they're all ideas I shall need to get used to.
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited April 10, 2001).]

[SerapisIV]

quote: Originally posted by Vrank Prins on 04-10-2001 03:45 AM Allthough it is of topic the idea brought the next thought to my mind. Having the choice to build two units within one term would also include the possibility (though I think productionconditions won't be that good that such an event will ever appear in the game and most certainly not in the endgame) to build a library and a temple, or maybe even two temple's or two libraries, whatever !! within one term. Strange notion though, though not unreal. Why not have the possibility to have a city with two cathedrals or universities or factories . . . The effect of two similar city-improvements within one city shouldn't be double but threefold. Cities could become real specialized with that feature.

I think this would seriously unbalance the game, having a city with 3 factories, turning out 4 tanks a turn. Thats the whole point of manufacturing plants, that add an improvement to the factory. Also, I think by weighting the factories to shields already this idea is already included. A city can only improve their shield production (already having a factory) by growing, thereby using more tile shields. Having 5 factories without population to run them is a waste. True, this doesn't mention the huge end game cities of 20+ pop, but how much manufacturing does NYC or Hong Kong have? As cities become larger, they become more centers of service industries, finance, etc. Look at Detroit, the city just dropped below 1 million people and manufacturing is going down as factories move. I'm against more then one factory, population restricts further shield gorwth and I think thats enough for now

[SerapisIV]

Dual production should be tied to only units double building or overflow shields go into the next queue item (I have no doubt of the queue returning, that was the most requested feature to get into SMAC and the one no one has complained about, except for the occasional build bug)

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV on 04-10-2001 10:55 AMI think this would seriously unbalance the game, having a city with 3 factories, turning out 4 tanks a turn.

That would be the ultimate consequence of things. And I agree with you an impossible one. All in all it was just a spontaneous thought written down.
But as I've said before, I don't think productionconditions will change that radical. I think production will increase by a very moderate estimate of 5 to 10%. And that may give you once in a long while so many shields that you virtually would be able to build two cheap units within one turn.

That is, if the choice is given to do so. And I don't think that's going to happen.

If the idea of "recycling left-over shields" is implemented in the game I think it's more likely to say that things will turn out the way that once in a long while you'll be able to build something for free. Because the shieldbox is that filled with left-overs, that you don't need to produce more shields. Send home the miners and the woodchoppers, give them a day off, let Elvis proliferated in the happinessbar. Allthough that would mean that you also loose the trade- and foodproduction coming from those tiles. If a celebrationday would give you extra points for the endscore it may become an incentive to do so.

[N35t0r]

I think that in SMAC you get some of the shiels, i'm not sure though.

i do recall seing some minerals (not as much as the city produced per turn) after i finished building something and when i put something else to be built.

[Vrank Prins]

I was just thinking what would happen to the rushbuildpenalty if you need to "buy" instantly a cathedral or colosseum when one of your cities is in uproar.
Now you get a penalty of four times the actual prize if you buy one from scratch and there's nothing in the shieldbox, and of double the prize if you had already started building things. I think that with only left-overs shields in the box, in a start to build situation, that should stay. But ofcourse, minus what's already in the box.
The changepenalty should have its normal effect on the left-overs.
Maybe the difference between left-overs and normal production should be visualized with slightly different colours.