Easy quick question about destroyers

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by bongo
I believe that AA-guns, even before guided missiles were invented, mostly were used to boost morale. I mean, just how many rounds did you have to fire to down a singe plane?

I remember reading somewhere that in the 1940 air attacks on London by the Luftwaffe it took over 700 rounds from a heavy AA gun to account for one bomber and that was aimed fire in daylight. If the guns had to fire a blind barrage at night the figure went up to over 8000 rounds per bomber shot down!

No wonder munitions was a profitable business.

[Mad Bomber]

Bongo:

a .30 cal mg is effective enough to down even a very advanced plane if it is engaged in low level attacks. 20mm and 40mm cannon can reach up to 10,000 ft or so, making them a threat to a plane in a low-medium level flight envelope. 90mm or above can reach in excess of 45,000 ft. All but the 90mm weapons are used in most infantry divisions around the world, so even infantry units should have some defense against aircraft.

In Vietnam the US suffered a majority of its aircraft losses due to ground fire, and a considerable portion of that was under 20mm. Aircraft were even downed in Vietnam by AK47's....

In the Gulf War Tornados flown by the British and Saudis were assigned to attack airfields in Iraq. Due to the aerodynamics of their ordanance they prefered to deliver their bombs at low level. The Tornados suffered high loss rates in the opening days of the air attack to ground fire, unitl they changed their tactics and dropped at higher altitudes.

Of course I am not suggesting that an Infantry division should have the same air defense as an Aegis cruiser, but they should have an ability to damage air units.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
... but they should have an ability to damage air units.

Therein lies the problem. We cannot DAMAGE air units in the game.

I would have enjoyed 2-3 hitpoint air units. ADA can take 1 HP off, fighters could take 1 or more off, and everyone heals at 1 HP/ turn. Too involved for the perceived mass market, I suppose.

[bongo]

Mad Bomber: I know that infantry using guns can harm planes, my point(if any) is that their effect will be very low compared to specialist AA-units so in civ their effect should be low or none. Maybe allowing them to take one HP would be a good solution but then you would have to give HP to air-units.

I actually served one year as a soldier in a SAM-battery so I'm familiar with those numbers.

[Datajack Franit]

So the only choice is either air force of cruise missiles

[bongo]

Cruise missiles are not made for anti-aircraft use. They are mostly for stationary or slow-moving targets.

In civ3 you have fighters, mobile-SAMs and AEGIS-cruisers. Thats one AA-unit for each domain(land, sea and air). Something for everyone

[Tattila the Hun]

I don's have mobile sams... Fighters can be damaged, why not bombers?

[Mad Bomber]

Bongo:

I think you missed the point of my argument, The basic system of anti-air is too simple, the only defense is with fighters or Sams and if a Sam hits you you are dead regardless of HP of aircraft. I think that AA in Civ 3 should be resolved with a bombardment like system with separate values for AA and AA ROF. So for example a infantry unit would have a AA value of 2 with a AA ROF of 1. Where as a Aegis Cruiser would have an AA value of 16 with an AA ROF of 3. This would make air attacks far more realistic with minimal changes to game mechanics. With an air attack against an Infantry unit the chance would be low of causing 1 Hp damage, but with an air attack against an aegis cruiser you would have 3 AA attacks with a good possibility of doing damage.

Also Aircraft do have HP, its just not noticable due to the simplistic air combat now used in CIV3.

[redhat]

I think that if the patroling aircraft is more technologically advance than the bombarding aircraft then there should be an improved chance of interception. Secondly, we should be able to send fighters to take down enemy's patrolling aircrafts as well.

One more thing, I always have a feeling that the "zone of control" flag for Aeigis cruiser is to prevent enemy air unit from passing through....I think I am wrong...

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by redhat
...
One more thing, I always have a feeling that the "zone of control" flag for Aeigis cruiser is to prevent enemy air unit from passing through....I think I am wrong...

Without a doubt. How can ZOC affect an air unit that never passes through tiles?

Naval (or even ground) units, on the other hand ...

[bongo]

Mad Bomber, I have never built SAMs or AEGIS in any of my games(haven't gotten that far in the tech tree).But I see your point, the air combat model is a bit simplistic.