Crossing mountain ranges and rivers

[Sir Shiva]

Exactly the point I'm trying to make in my 'The map.. again' post..

Another example :- Importance of mountain passes.. All invaders who came to India were deterred by the Himalayas and Hindukush.. This made passes like the Khyber Pass very strategically important and well-defended..

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-Shiva
Email: shiva@mailops.com
Web: http://www.crosswinds.net/india/~shiva
ICQ: 17719980

[Christantine The Great]

I think that an early sub (I.E. Pre-WWI U-Boat) should be able to traverse large rivers without detection because of their small size. Subs the size as WWII U-Boats should be able to go down a large river but be detectable. Large Nuclear Subs should not be able to go down a river at all because of their huge size.

Another point that should be mentioned is canals. They can let ships go through thin points on continents (i.e. Panama, Suez) or to connect rivers. These canals should come in different sizes since the land around the site is not always smooth and flat. There can be a lock-canal an an actual waterway. A lock canal can be used to transport ships over large hills and the regular canal would be used at flatter points.

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"Adorare Christantine!!!"
Republican Decree #1

[phunny pharmer]

Double Post!!!!!
[This message has been edited by phunny pharmer (edited July 29, 2000).]

[phunny pharmer]

Canals...PHUN PHUN PHUN!!!!!! Been waiting a while to see those come up. The #1 naval necessity of Civ3!!!!

DarkCloud: Great idea!!! That's also a civ3 happening. They aren't molehills. However, all units should take damage except for places where there are roads. Even modern ground troops (except partisans and alpines) should take damage. Lets add some realism.

Question: where does an 800 pound gorilla sit? Answer: anywhere it wants.
Question: where does a several hundred ton nuclear submarine go?
Answer:...

All the rivers of Civ3 should be navigable. Any and all boats should be able to move through them. After all, if you are going to have canals in this game, what's the diff?

Of course, civs can chose to block rivers, or put mines in them...

[beyowulf]

Hey, how about canals, that could generate tax revenue? Depending on how many moves it would have taken to otherwise reach the destination.

See what I am imagining as a canal is something a settler can build after x amounts turns. Now say you build a canal to reach a city built alongside a lake, that would otherwise be landlocked. That would even increase the revenue, because there would be no other way to reach it by ship.

Though I suppose the nation in questions economic strenght would also have something to do with it. If you have a canal, and no wants to trade with you, and no one uses it, its not going to generate much money.

[Evil Capitalist]

About canals:
1. There should be 2 types- major and minor. Suezs and grand unions respectivly.
2. The major ones can cross isthemus-like areas (which should be like the old connection between 2 tiles on a diagonal) and can be sailed down, blocked, etc.
3. Minor canals should be built in the short period of time before railways as improved roads with e.g.1/5th movement bringing an extra trade/ production bonus. All cities which are linked by canals have reduced corruption.

I've tried to cover the effects of both European and Chineese canals.

[phunny pharmer]

OK. Now lets not have penalties just for moving anywhere, anyhow, anyday. That would be BAD.

I think that a 10% penalty for square of mountains crossed wouldn't be that bad...it would just encourage civs to go around them. That's all we want, right. Putting fancy bonuses for movement and stuff would defeat the purpose of the game.

Certainly, there should be no penalties for any other square crossed. Putting penalties for crossing PLAINS!?! That would kill exploration in multiplayer.

A few exceptions to the mountain-crossing penalty:

1) Alpine troops- no penalty at all
2) Gunpowder and later armies- 10% chance of getting the 10% penalty if there are no roads.
3) Roads with early unit- would do the same thing as #2.
4) Roads/Improved roads with late units- no penalty.
5) Railroads- no penalty.

Mountains would also act as SMAC xenofungus: only a certain percentage of the time can you cross them. However, if you can't cross, you still take the penalty!!!

Moral of the story- go around the mountains, or build roads.

An easy way to make a defensive barrier: take out the roads.

[Christantine The Great]

I think that canals can only be built 2 squares away from a water source so the AI doesn't go crazy by completely canaling a continent (i.e. fields of railroads; continents of farms).

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"Adorare Christantine!!!"
Republican Decree #1

[DarkCloud]

Phunny:

That's what Explorers and Diplomats are for.
(They are greatly underused in the game) They should be able to cross anywhere without penalties for desertion (They WANT to explore)

On your 5 conditions I wholeheartedly agree. The same would go for hills I expect.

For plains if you build a road or achieve gunpowder or conscription there will be no peanalty on plains or anywhere except mountains.

However if you are in a democracy, communism or fanaticism since you are fighting for your beliefs you wouldn't desert.

Christantine:

How about the canals can *Not* be parrallel. THis would prevent the scenario you propose while still allowing the navigation of the 'Northwest Passage' in America.

[DarkCloud]

Evil Capitalist:

In response to , "They knew where they were going" There is no need for a survey, because, after the first unit has traversed the mountains that land becomes clear and no longer black space on the map.

Christantine the Great:

I believe that engineers should be the only ones to build canals. For, canals though some were made in olden times have been best utilized in this century. How about the engineers take 10-15 turns to build a canal on plains?

The rivers should be able to be navigated by a new kind of boat- The canoe or skiff, both with low attack ratios and defense but they would be perfect for early navigation (canoe) or troop transport (skiff) (1-2 units).

Phunny Pharmer:

How about having the damage be relative. Such as when on Plains damage (deserters) the chance will be 5% when you are not in a war, and 10% when you are in a war. Or in the hills 7%- no war 12%-war

The damage would be minimal, say 10%, however if you are on a road there would be no damage because of 'enforcer' citizens.

[Evil Capitalist]

By surveying the area, I mean a comprehensive earch for the lowest passes, highest mountains, accurate sources of rivers.

I'm not too sure about the two square idea. Britain got covered by (fairly unneeded) canals in about 20-30 years, although I can't speak for other nations.

[Az]

Evil Cappie :

well we don't have this problem in CIV . all Great Britain is About 25 tiles and it is 3 tiles wide so ......


Dalgetti


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Prepare to Land !

[raingoon]

Maybe once a week I'll take advantage of Dark Cloud's excellent inventory of "Related Threads" and pick a dead horse to beat a signal drum on. Today it's rivers and canals.

Hey FIRAXIS. Look again at some of these ideas above here.

Canals? Don't even think about not including them.
Also the idea that SMALL RIVERS are crossable, LARGE RIVERS are not crossable without a bridge of some sort. Please, PLEASE tell me that these river rules will be included in the Civ 3 design...

Thanks to Dark Cloud again for making this so accessible.

[Cyclotron]

I liked the idea in the Civ2 Scenario Civil War of the river forts, a unit with 0 attack and movement that took up the "river" (they actually made the Mississippi a thin band of ocean so it could be navigable). Although I'm not really sure how you would place them, with no movement...

Canals: Yes.
Navigable Rivers: HUGE yes.
Two kinds of rivers: It would be cool, but not really necessary.

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"Any shred of compassion left in me was snuffed out forever when they cast me into the flames..."
- Marsil, called the Pretender

[Urban Ranger]

Considering that a turn is equal to 20 years or more at the beginning of the game, units are going to cross rivers with ease.