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  • Crossing mountain ranges and rivers

    In Civ 2 units have basically no difficulties crossing a river or a mountain range. In real life they used to be safe borderlines which could not be crossed just like that. Think about the Roman empire, for example. The empire had hudreds of kilometers of "natural" borders, such as the river Danube, which couldn't be crossed by the barbarians. However, in Civ 2 these kind of natural borders are of no use. Any unit can simply walk over them without suffering any damage or penalties.

    I suggest the movement modifier for mountains should be a lot higher and a unit crossing a mountain range should also suffer SEVERE damage, which would indicate the loss of men due to harsh conditions. Roads should of course decrease the damage suffered, but on the other hand building roads on mountain squares, especially in ancient/medieval period, should be very time (and settler!) consuming, a lot harder than it is in Civ 2.

    As for rivers, you simply can not cross the Mississippi without a bridge or a boat. Of course you can send 1000 ancient warriors to swim over it and see how many of them makes it to the other side...

    One kind of solution could be to make the rivers on the maps more realistic. The biggest rivers, The Amazon and the like, should be displayed with ocean squares. This would be realistic. There should also be two separate river terrain types. Small rivers could be crossed with small movement and damage penalties. Crossing large rivers would be harder, and the unit crossing them should suffer movement and damage penalties similiar to those that you suffer when crossing mountains. The bridge building advace could also be divided to bridge building, which would allow you to build a bridge over a small river, and advanced bridge building would allow you to build bridges over large rivers. Those HUGE bridges, like the one that connects Sweden and Denmark, should require advances like railroad, steel and the like.

    ------------------
    Don't mess with me or my pet polar bear shall tear you to shreds! I'm a friend of the king of the penguins, too. Respect me!
    [This message has been edited by Woodmen Chief (edited July 15, 2000).]
    Don't mess with me or my pet polar bear shall tear you to shreds! I'm a friend of the king of the penguins, too. Respect me!

  • #2
    well, in CtP they had this feature that non-infantry untis couldn't pass mountains unless they had roads or railway on them

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    • #3
      Whoops. Sorry, I havent played CtP and didn't know. How embarrassing...
      Don't mess with me or my pet polar bear shall tear you to shreds! I'm a friend of the king of the penguins, too. Respect me!

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      • #4
        you don't have to feel embarassed about this. you haven't played and so you couldn't know. that's no problem. many here haven't played CtP.

        some even don't play civ2. (those spammer guys in the Off-Topic forum)

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        • #5
          HEY I'M A SPAMMER GUY!!!

          Then again I don't play Civ2 or AC anymore anyway.

          Diablo 2 on the other hand....

          ------------------
          King Par4!!

          fldmarshallpar4@icqmail.com

          There is no spoon
          -The Matrix
          Let's kick it up a notch!!
          -Emeril Lagasse
          Fresh Soy makes Tofu so silky
          -Ming Tsai

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          • #6
            Woodmen Chief: ignore Par4.

            Par4: ignore Woodmen chief

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            • #7
              Well mountains should be crossed by anything...

              There should be TWO river types - small river and large river. A large river would be the Danube, Mississippi, etc that units can't cross easily, and ships can move on (small ships however, no subs because they need to be low to be hidden, nothing huge like battleships because they're too heavy). Can be crossed once Civ discovers advanced bridge building.
              Small rivers like the Darling river in Australia would be small rivers, no ships can enter a square containing it (apart from ports) and no unit can cross until bridge building is discovered.

              The bridge building techs should enable a unit to cross without necessarily having an improvement like a bridge there...
              Das Wasser soll dein Spiegel sein
              Erst wenn es glatt ist, wirst du sehen
              Wieviel Märchen dir noch bleibt
              und um Erlösung wirst du flehen.

              The water shall be your mirror
              Only when it's smooth you will see
              How much fairy-tale is left for you
              And you will beg for deliverance.

              'Alter Mann', RAMMSTEIN.

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              • #8
                What about temporary bridges like in WW2? They could be added to a unit formation like e.g. a diplomat in CTP. Then you could cross a river with reduced damage.

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                • #9
                  There some kick-ass suggestions here! I'll sum it up plus give a few more ideas:

                  *There should be thin(civ2 type) and broad (ships, but not subs can travel) rivers. Units'll be able to cross, BUT with a chance of drowning/disappearing/damage.

                  *A mobile bridge unit should be available (but the AI'll probably go spastic over this )

                  *Mountains should be crossable, but maybe have different height mountains that are progressively harder to cross.

                  *Judging by the comments here, CTP probably isn't worth playing anyway compared to SMAC(hi Limey)

                  *I hate people playing Diablo2 cause my computer's too slow to run it (I'm still on a P166 )

                  ------------------
                  No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...
                  No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary... (And no, koalas don't usually speak!)

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                  • #10
                    quote:

                    Originally posted by Comrade Dan on 07-15-2000 10:50 PM
                    Well mountains should be crossed by anything...

                    There should be TWO river types - small river and large river. A large river would be the Danube, Mississippi, etc that units can't cross easily, and ships can move on (small ships however, no subs because they need to be low to be hidden, nothing huge like battleships because they're too heavy). Can be crossed once Civ discovers advanced bridge building.

                    The bridge building techs should enable a unit to cross without necessarily having an improvement like a bridge there...


                    I think units should be able to cross small rivers with no difficulties after discovering bridge building, but crossing large rivers would still require a visible bridge, ie. it could only be done where you have built a road or a railroad over the river or in cities. An option would be that you could cross a large river within a city radius of your own or an allied city or something to represent the possibility to use boats there.
                    Don't mess with me or my pet polar bear shall tear you to shreds! I'm a friend of the king of the penguins, too. Respect me!

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                    • #11
                      Hmm as I've said before most armies have engineer units with them, the Romans did, um Napoleon did I think, US does, everyone in WWI-II did. I would like to assume you automatically get engineers when you reach that advance. Having another unit on the map no! thatll kill the AI with that unit too !

                      ------------------
                      King Par4!!

                      fldmarshallpar4@icqmail.com

                      There is no spoon
                      -The Matrix
                      Let's kick it up a notch!!
                      -Emeril Lagasse
                      Fresh Soy makes Tofu so silky
                      -Ming Tsai

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ok, if you really urge to have that river crossing tactical problem, simply add the special funcion "engineer" for mines sweeping, bridges building, fortress making and the like (ability to balance with tech available, of course).

                        We can have this accomplished thru Unit Workshop as we already debated (I remember the thread about Romans), to add some engineer ability to common units (at a building price).

                        Firaxis used this in SMAC to add SAM ability to AI sea transports, just to help it do a better job instead of stacking transports with Aegis like ships.

                        BTW, I still will like that Special ability only add a partial benefit to a common unit, instead of the full dedicated unit.

                        I.e. a SAM unit should have more firepower than added SAM special ability to Infantry (you know, ligtht flak on truck and personal missiles like Stinger versus heavy flak and medium missiles on tanks), or some engineer ability like road buildings and trench digging versus dedicated engineers for railroads, main bridges, terraforming, main fortress.

                        ------------------
                        Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant
                        "We are reducing all the complexity of billions of people over 6000 years into a Civ box. Let me say: That's not only a PkZip effort....it's a real 'picture to Jpeg heavy loss in translation' kind of thing."
                        - Admiral Naismith

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                        • #13
                          How about when crossing mountains it works like the Xenofungus movement in Alpha Centauri or you have a 10-30% chance in the years before the discovery of Alpine Troops to lose 1/4 to 1/2 of your force while traversing the mountains.
                          -->Visit CGN!
                          -->"Production! More Production! Production creates Wealth! Production creates more Jobs!"-Wendell Willkie -1944

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                          • #14
                            That may be a little unrealistic. The Romans used to send lots of troops across the alps, they knew where they were going. Maybe you could give a unit the order 'survey' which would eliminate the penalty. You would need some advance similar to bridge building.
                            "The free market is ugly and stupid, like going to the mall; the unfree market is just as ugly and just as stupid, except there is nothing in the mall and if you don't go there they shoot you." - P.J. O'Rourke

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                            • #15
                              Exactly the point I'm trying to make in my 'The map.. again' post..

                              Another example :- Importance of mountain passes.. All invaders who came to India were deterred by the Himalayas and Hindukush.. This made passes like the Khyber Pass very strategically important and well-defended..

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                              -Shiva
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                              Web: http://www.crosswinds.net/india/~shiva
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