Simple way to make CIV more "real"

[TomCB]

Joining Rome

Very true, they didn't WANT to, but ultimately they did join the British empire, at least for a considerable time and to one degree or another.

I firmly believe that populations will only "convert" if their own civilization has not become entrenched enough AND, not IF, the dominate culture, or the one being converted too, is vastly more advanced or percieved as better.

Case in point:
Millions of illegal aliens cross the Southern border of the US every year.
Yet they do not "convert" to the US culture, they work very hard at keeping their own, even at the point of entertaining the idea of returning vast sections of US territory to Mexico that were seized in a war of aggression in the early 1800's which the US started or at least encouraged and Mexico lost.
Do a google search of "Aztlan" and see for yourself.

This is going to evolve into an argument of one culture being superior to another which is INCREDIBLY un-PC, even if justified.

The game would have to define which qualities are "good" and which ones are "bad" to each civilization.
Government types, levels of freedom, economic system, religion or the tolerance level of all religions and overall prosperity would just be the beginning of things that could be used.
What one culture values another despises.
The West generally values freedom of religion, while many countries hate others for no other reason than the religion in different.
The same can be said for economic models.

I think that cultural lines on the map should have an effect for defining territory, but conversion.......no.

Parts of France were given to Germany as a result of the Fraco-Prussian war in 1870.
But the people stayed French. and became French nationals again after WWI ended and the land was returned.
Perhaps this is why native populations have been removed (or destroyed) in order to make an area more to the victors likeing.

With these and other factors added in to the diplomatic options available, natural alliances and enemies should be created.

Want to really shake things up a bit.
Add in a few secret societies that so many think really pull the strings behind the scenes.
How about organized crime, drugs and whatever assortment of banned items you wish to include.

One thing they should change as well is the idea that 4 of my advance armor can be killed by an enemy tank.

[Zachriel]

Re: Joining Rome

Originally posted by TomCB
Case in point:
Millions of illegal aliens cross the Southern border of the US every year. Yet they do not "convert" to the US culture. . .

Sure they do. Or more accurately, a new American culture emerges from the mixing of cultures -- just as it should.

[brianshapiro]

re: immigration . a good example is texas being a part of mexico but then joining the united states because of american immigrants.

but .,.. the french revolution encouraged nationalism which made others resistant to the french; culture had already become a key concern. in feudal situations in the middle ages loose borders and less national identity led to things like 'cultural flipping'

also that the game is centered around cities makes things strange ,but if you consider a city a province or area you can consider kosovar rebellion as a force of cultural flipping to albania

[brianshapiro]

tomcb, zachariel:

some conservatives get into trouble with this issue by talkinga bout preserving western culture and values which sounds supremacist. but the reason it should be taken seriously, is that many people in academia and politics are promoting immigration policies with the specific aim of destroying western culture, ie the immigration quotas are larger the more a nation is non-western, and there are policies to attract those from nonwestern cultures. stary eyed academics from ethnic studies depts, etc actually promote this with ideas of destroying the western culture that supposedly is the source of all racism and bigotry seen in things like christianity etc. so this is where the fight started. people are responding to a coercive effort going on

[TomCB]

brianshapiro!!!!!!!& zachariel

You better watch your back being in The Peoples Republic of Berkley and all.
You keep talking like that and you might get wacked.
LOL
Why isn't the French attacked for thinking their culture is so wonderful, but Americans are?


zachariel.
As far as immigration, I bet the mexican government regreted it's policies at the time.
Remember, armed Americans made Texas a independent state and then it "joined" the Union.

Sorry, but you are mistaken about a greater culture being created through modern immigration.

They (from every nation) keep their own culture (especially language) and refuse to accept what was here before them.
Others may accept some of what they bring, but that is hardly the same thing.

Do a search on Aztlan and you will see that there is a concerted effort to move vast numbers of mexicans into the US with the purpose to take over local government through elections.

The problem is that once there, they can create policies that encourage even further expansion and then we could very well see the end of the US, at least as we know it.
And that would be a very bad thing for the entire world, even if they don't realize it.

My question is, if mexican culture is so wonderful, why are they coming here?

We are getting WAY off topic and I think any further discussion should be made through private e-mail before the mods feel it is required to do something drastic.

I wonder what sorts of debates the designers had cultural conversion.

[bobbo008]

"Parts of France were given to Germany as a result of the Fraco-Prussian war in 1870.
But the people stayed French. and became French nationals again after WWI ended and the land was returned."

Many Germans there, as well. But yes, the French people there in the area did not consider themselves German afterwards.

"Perhaps this is why native populations have been removed (or destroyed) in order to make an area more to the victors likeing."

The territory Poland received from Germany after WWII had 10.9 million people. Of those, 9 million were German. Most of those Germans were forced to leave for the present-day borders of Germany. So much for drawing borders based on nationality.

[bobbo008]

"Sure they do. Or more accurately, a new American culture emerges from the mixing of cultures -- just as it should."

Spanglish, anyone?

"Why isn't the French attacked for thinking their culture is so wonderful, but Americans are?"

I agree, down with the French!

"armed Americans made Texas a independent state and then it "joined" the Union."

The U.S. refused to admit Texas, then it became for a short time, I believe, the so-called "Lone Star Republic".

"My question is, if mexican culture is so wonderful, why are they coming here?"

Money, not the culture.

[brianshapiro]

tomcb ,
le pen is attacked by the french as if he's hitler , while really hes as harmless as pat buchanan

[TomCB]

Culteral Conversions

bobbo008
Hitler did have plans to make large tracts of Europe convert to German.
However, it had nothing to do with a "Hearts and Minds" approach and he cared nothing about conversion of the natives.
His had more to do with immigration, yea thats the word, immigration. Since no one else was going to be living there anymore anyways.

OK, we all agree with "Down with the French"
You know, I even take great delight in wiping them out in the game........

Did you know that the Texas Constitution has a provision that will allow it to become 5 different states should it desire to do so?

Do the mexicans really think that if they managed to take over huge chucks of the US that it would not become as screwed up as Mexico is today?
I guess they don't they understand that the culture is what brought the money, not the land itself.

As far as Germans leaving the area, remember that they were not exactly the most loved people in the region after WWII and were most likely rightly fearful for thier lives.

I don't recall the details about Texas, I thought they did not want to join but were "forced" into it when they needed the military support. Perhaps I will care enough some day to look it up.

"Spanglish, anyone?"

Are you kidding us. Americans on average can't find the US on a map and you want us to learn a new language.

Sorry, I go with the "Our house, Our rules"
Come here, speak Americanized English.

We did not learn Galic, or Polish, or Italian or any other language when massive numbers of the various people came here.
Therefore I see no reason why we should change the pattern now.


On another point, am playing PTW right now and saw two white plumes shoot out of two Russian cities as I was massing to attack them......ACK

I started trading maps and found that ALL the other powers had been tossing nukes around like it was there mission in life.
I have not launched any, nor have I been hit with any.

What starts it and why are the Russians dying rather than use them on me?
Could the 20 or so ICBM's I have laying around be the reason?

[bobbo008]

"As far as Germans leaving the area, remember that they were not exactly the most loved people in the region after WWII and were most likely rightly fearful for thier lives."

So you admit they probably didn't have much of a choice?

"Are you kidding us. Americans on average can't find the US on a map and you want us to learn a new language."

I was referring to the new culture in the border areas.

"Sorry, I go with the "Our house, Our rules"
Come here, speak Americanized English."

Unfortunately, they don't. As a matter of fact, only several states have an official language.

"We did not learn Galic, or Polish, or Italian or any other language when massive numbers of the various people came here.
Therefore I see no reason why we should change the pattern now."

Exactly, all of us Europeans learned a different language and there's no reason Mexicans or Asians can't do the same damn thing. There were as many German speakers as English speakers at the time, as well.

[TomCB]

To brianshapiro

Le Pen is about as conservative as Bob Dole.

The French were so funny how they just freaked out over him.
And to think, he was hated because he wanted to stop immigration in order to save French culture.
Hmmm, maybe we should incourage immigration into France afterall.

And Pat Buchanan is not a factor in politics anymore.
But then either is the vast number of "politicians" and media whores that try to make themselves far more important than they really are.

[bobbo008]

Le Pen, to my knowledge, did want to leave the Eurozone and the E.U., but I doubt one man is going to make that happen (yeah, all of France's problems are Europe's fault). That would cost I don't know how much money and would be rejected by everyone but some old opinionated WWII vets and radicals.

If France left the E.U., though, would it still exist after that? Hmm... think of what that would lead to...

[TomCB]

To bobbo008

Why is it anyone who has a conservative or UN PC point of view is a radical?

Ever think that Vets may actually understand things better than the current population that has never had to struggle for anything?
By they way, he did get something like 35% of the vote, that is a whole lot of "radicals."

I think that France is just having the same problems that most other European countries are having.

They all have these HUGE bloated federal programs that they keep having to import more and immigrant labor to pay for, which compounds the problems even more.

Do you know why Canada's money become worth less and less?
It is because they keep printing more and more money to pay for their programs.
They are paying for them through inflation.
Some day their money won't be worth the paper it is printed on.

Personally, I am looking forward to the whole liberal dream thing falling apart, should prove to be quite entertaining.

The new MOO3 is supposed to have a currency manipulation feature in it. That should make things very interesting if it is done right.

[bobbo008]

"Ever think that Vets may actually understand things better than the current population that has never had to struggle for anything?"

Most vets here blame most of our problems on "the damn VietCong" or "Japs" or something to that mentality.

"By they way, he did get something like 35% of the vote, that is a whole lot of "radicals."

35% of the those who voted. Most of those are the most manipulated ones. As we've already discussed, the masses don't react to rationalism and reason. Most of these voters probably just like to hear how it's not their fault, and that they can blame somebody else for all of their problems. And your sentence should be "those are a whole lot of radicals".

"Personally, I am looking forward to the whole liberal dream thing falling apart, should prove to be quite entertaining."

You do that, then, waiting for the inevitable downfall of Canadian society and/or total assimilation into the United States, whichever one you have deemed to happen...

edit: noticed the American flag by your name and had to forgive you

[TomCB]

Wisconsin must be a very strage place to live in

Your vets are a bit different then the ones around here. Around here they generally are pretty quite, except when it comes to military lives being wasted for political gain, ie. Somalia.
Your vets should understand that our problems are caused by us, we who are too fickle to be told the truth by the would be elected officials and too spineless to do what is necessary as a nation.

So, any vote for a conservative is manipulated?
Nice logic, must keep you in that fantasy world very nicely.

I have not deemed anything regarding Canada's future.
I have just studies economics and cause and effect.
Besides, after the lefties get done with it it won't be worth owning and we will have to put up with massive immigration from the North as well.

Simply put, the more of something there is the less it is worth.
As Canada and other countries print more and more money in order to avoid raising debt levels, the currency becomes worth less and less.

That is how they will become like so much of South America with 4000% inflation and currency only good as bathroom tissue.

Damn Nixon getting us off the gold standard.

No, I had the quotation marks in the right place.

History will tell, and history has shown time and time again how states that go for the liberal dream crash and burn.
The first was Rome, which had massive public assistance programs that drained the treasury so much that the legions could not be paid.
The USSR is a mess, although it was an extreme case of leftism.
East Germany is a wreck and even California is drowning in debt.
Now it is Europes turn, how fun it will be to watch the lefties make excuses for just plain bad management.