P*ss and moan about a great game

[Willem]

Originally posted by bobbo008
in the real world, there aren't some two alternative power solutions, and no other methods to build tanks or other military options.

Within 10 years, hydrogen/fuel cell powered vehicles will start to become commonplace. Eventually all vehicles will be powered using fuel cell technology. The days of the internal combustion engine are numbered.

yes, many resources. only several in the game. therefore, in the game, england should not be expansionist if the reason for it in real life isn't in the game. Let's not forget about gold, which is lost to corruption, thus making the gold rushes of california and alaska pointless.

Again with the editor. The resources in the game were kept simplistic so that the general casual player, who are the majority, wouldn't get hopelessly confused. If you want more complexity in that area you can.

corruption should go to almost none or "communal" in modern times with the advent of instant communication. I don't see why they made this so bad in the first place when they did game testing.

That's your preference, and that of a very small number of people. If they did things your way, there's be all sorts of people complaing that corruption was to easy. If you don't like it, you have every opportunity to change it.

BTW, Enron, Worldcom, Martha Stewart etc. has clearly shown that corruption is still a major problem in today's world. Or do you not watch the news. You are aware that the current economic slump in the US in part has been caused by corruption? A lot of "shields" are being wasted in the US economy at the moment due to the stock market meltdown caused by those corrupt business leaders.

[bobbo008]

"quote:

I have Privateers set with attack of 3 and defense of 1, and galleys with one each. No matter what, if I attack them, they attack me when I'm fortified, they've always won (at least the 20 or so times i've had this matchup). There is no way those numbers work.

And again"

You miss the point. I DID use the editor. I'm saying those stats don't match up (3 to 1).

"It seems to me that a couple of guys in an inflatable raft managed to do some pretty serious damage to the USS Cole a short while back."

You're comparing a boat filled with explosives to bows and arrows, and MAYBE flaming arrows...

"You probably don't have a strong enough military. If I'm able to kick some serious butt with a civ, they rarely come into my territory."

3 times the #2 civ's size, actually.

"Build up your culture in the area and assimilate them. Free cities!
You can out build the AI any day!"

I don't want it to happen, not how to fix it.

"quote:

air units
Fighters only have a range of 6 or whatever it is, but in one turn they can rebase to an aircraft carrier in the middle of the ocean halfway around the globe.
You can change the range in the editor"

Once again, youve completely missed the point. This could only "work" if the planes and infinite range or roughly 100 range.

"Bombers can't sink ships! In fact there's no lethal bombardment at all in the default game. If you have that ability, you're playing with a mod. Oh yes, that's in the editor too."

that's exactly what I'm saying, some of it should be by default. I don't think I should have to change it. Cannons, DO, in fact, kill people.

"Within 10 years, hydrogen/fuel cell powered vehicles will start to become commonplace. Eventually all vehicles will be powered using fuel cell technology. The days of the internal combustion engine are numbered. "

Exactly what I'm saying. There isn't an option like that in Civ3.

"Again with the editor. The resources in the game were kept simplistic so that the general casual player, who are the majority, wouldn't get hopelessly confused. If you want more complexity in that area you can."

Then it comes down to just how much I love this game... not that much.

"BTW, Enron, Worldcom, Martha Stewart etc. has clearly shown that corruption is still a major problem in today's world. Or do you not watch the news. You are aware that the current economic slump in the US in part has been caused by corruption? A lot of "shields" are being wasted in the US economy at the moment due to the stock market meltdown caused by those corrupt business leaders."

Yes, several million here and there make up, like, what, 50% of the U.S. economy? We're talking about nearly an entire city's "income" gone to corruption.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by bobbo008
"It seems to me that a couple of guys in an inflatable raft managed to do some pretty serious damage to the USS Cole a short while back."

You're comparing a boat filled with explosives to bows and arrows, and MAYBE flaming arrows...

Co-opting technology is standard. The Native Americans were certainly not a "Gunpowder Civilization," but they certainly could use a gun, they would buy them from unscrupulous traders, they would steal them, and they were actually given them by Colonialists for fights against other Colonialists.

"Bombers can't sink ships! In fact there's no lethal bombardment at all in the default game. If you have that ability, you're playing with a mod. Oh yes, that's in the editor too."

that's exactly what I'm saying, some of it should be by default. I don't think I should have to change it. Cannons, DO, in fact, kill people.

I agree that lethal bombardment for ships would be appropriate, but not for defending Infantry. Yes, bombardment kills people, but as a rule, does not destroy unit cohesion (the ability of the separate elements of a military unit to coordinate activities, morale or esprit de corps being the most important factor).

[bobbo008]

first off, to zachziel, great site, anyways:

"Co-opting technology is standard. The Native Americans were certainly not a "Gunpowder Civilization," but they certainly could use a gun, they would buy them from unscrupulous traders, they would steal them, and they were actually given them by Colonialists for fights against other Colonialists."

relating to Custer, the Native Americans actually were better equipped when in shorter range.

"I agree that lethal bombardment for ships would be appropriate, but not for defending Infantry. Yes, bombardment kills people, but as a rule, does not destroy unit cohesion (the ability of the separate elements of a military unit to coordinate activities, morale or esprit de corps being the most important factor)."

Ok, so you can get land units redlined. They can then go to a town or even sit there and be back to full health in a turn or several depending on where and if you leave them alone. That is like reinforcements for free. You should at least be charged in some way for units being repaired/reinforced.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Dissident
yep, these are the same things that have been bothering us for the last 13 months. Don't expect these features to go anywhere soon, or ever. They are part of the game.

I second Diss' motion. The game's the game.

But if you want my pet beefs - they are the ability to change production and the GL building project.

Like - ooh - we were almost finished the pyramids, but someone beat us to it. So, we'll just arrange some of these blocks, and yes - it is the Colussus.

Or better yet - let's start building a second palace, and in x hundred years from now when we are 10 shields from completing it and have the necessary technology, presto, we will turn it into an observatory.

Or the worst - yes - let's stop building the temple, and turn all those blocks into - an archer!

And - gee - we have this great leader who in one turn can build what normally takes 50.

It's not so much a reality issue I have with this (although that is part of it), but it takes some of the strategy out of the game. Marshalling workers to cut down forests to speed up production, for instance, and tweaking a city's production to the nth degree. Balancing happiness and production as you try to beat other civs to complete a wonder. That's the fun part.

Perhaps a 'wasted' project could be worth say 25% for it's material value. And maybe a GL could speed up production by 33% - but not to one turn. And say you have the ability to pour extra money into a project - perhaps the ability to buy 10% of the wonder's shields.

There - them's my beefs and them's my ideas.

[Beta]

And you know - the corruption model has never been an issue for me. It is quasi realistic. There are ways of managing it. It becomes an integral part of the strategy of the game. And most important - it is a great leveller in terms of holding back a civ from growing too large - and that means you and me, the human players.

[Egbert]

Re: P*ss and moan about a great game

Originally posted by bobbo008

Right of Passage
you don't have it, so why move into my territory every turn, when every turn i just ask you to move?

AI wars
It would be fine by me if two other civs fight without me being involved somehow

no city trading
I know this was brought up before, but to get one city from the AI, I'll have to offer roughly 15 good cities.

Re: Right of passage

Have a look at where those AI units are going so you can figure out why they are moving through your territory. They may be passing through your territory to attack another civ or they may be passing through to attack a barbarian settlement. In such cases I normally let them go through without ROP to preserve goodwill. Later, when I get writing, I establish an embassy and agree to ROP unless I want their territory. But, always consider the possibility they may launch a sneak attack, if they are massing up forces in and near your territory you are likely in their gunsights.

If they have no apparent reason to be in your territory they are quite likely to be planning a sneak attack (they might only be exploring in which case it would only be one or two units). I find the AI seldom sends units into my territory for no apparent reason. (BTW If the AI sends boats and lands more than one unit right beside one of your cities that almost invariably means hostile intent)

Re: AI wars

There may be some relationship between you demanding they leave your territory and the frequency of your wars. By frequently demanding they leave you annoy them thus increasing the chance that they will attack you. I only ask them to leave if they have a threatening amount of force in my territory. I see a lot of wars between the AI with no involvement on my part. I also find the AI becomes more aggressive towards me after I have exterminated another civilisation or otherwise been brutal and warlike. (Umh, if you annex the Czechs and Poles then the British and French will get grumpy ) Are you aggressive towards the AI civs?

ROPs are an integral part of diplomacy. ROPs increase the goodwill of the AI civ towards you. If you will not grant any ROPs then you may expect wars.

Re: city trading

In the real world, how many Chinese cities would USA accept in exchange for New York (and how many Chinese cities would the Chinese be prepared to swap)? Me thinks the Chinese would not consider giving any cities. Me thinks USA would not swap New York for the whole of China.

[Willem]

Originally posted by BetaHound
And you know - the corruption model has never been an issue for me. It is quasi realistic. There are ways of managing it. It becomes an integral part of the strategy of the game. And most important - it is a great leveller in terms of holding back a civ from growing too large - and that means you and me, the human players.

Not to mention the AI. If it weren't for corruption, the other civs would just keep on expanding and creating new cities, that's the way they've been programmed. At least the corruption slows them down at some point. This is something that clearly gets overlooked when people moan about the corruption levels.

[Egbert]

Originally posted by Willem


Not to mention the AI. If it weren't for corruption, the other civs would just keep on expanding and creating new cities, that's the way they've been programmed. At least the corruption slows them down at some point. This is something that clearly gets overlooked when people moan about the corruption levels.

Good point. Also if there was no corruption then the Fobidden Palace would be completely useless. I understand the Deity level players consider FP placement a vital matter because of the corruption issue. It therefore seems that the elimination of corruption would necessitate a lot of other changes , with consequent game balancing issues to be resolved, so that deity could remain playable.

Anyway, I think corruption is a good idea. One has to think before building or capturing cities, is this city worth the consequent increase in corruption. It neccesitates weighing up between quality and quantity of cities. Without corruption it may be desirable to just build as many cities as possible without so much regard to quality.

[Willem]

Originally posted by peterfharris


Anyway, I think corruption is a good idea. One has to think before building or capturing cities, is this city worth the consequent increase in corruption. It neccesitates weighing up between quality and quantity of cities. Without corruption it may be desirable to just build as many cities as possible without so much regard to quality.

I don't really like the corruption model myself, but my main beef is that there isn't enough ways to beat it. A Courthouse alone certainly isn't much use, and a Police Station isn't always much help either.

In my own mod, I'm creating an entire justice system, complete with District Courts, Prisons, even a Supreme Court (an FP type building). I figure I should at least have the opportunity of building my way out of severe corruption.

[brianshapiro]

the main unrealism in the game is:

that cities need the government to build everything for them, banks, temples, etc.
i had a republican friend who used to joke about civilization being communist

thats the way corruption becomes unrealistic. who cares if its lost federal worth due to local resistance , etc etc if the city cant build its own banks locally.

thats the way culture becomes unrealistic , because its measured by things you choose to build.

thats the way shields/production is unrealistic.


the basic mechanisms of the game are unrealistic


producing all of your cities buildings.
choosing political revolutions from a listbox.
picking what discoveries you will discover next.
moving military units on a turn by turn basis.

[brianshapiro]

anyway thats why corruption becomes unrealistic . as if federal corruption with distance has anything to do with whether los angeles can prosper culturally or economically

[bobbo008]

"Have a look at where those AI units are going so you can figure out why they are moving through your territory. They may be passing through your territory to attack another civ or they may be passing through to attack a barbarian settlement"

No barbs left and i'm all alone on the right side (no x-wrapping, i believe its called). It's always like a pikeman and a settler.

"In the real world, how many Chinese cities would USA accept in exchange for New York (and how many Chinese cities would the Chinese be prepared to swap)? Me thinks the Chinese would not consider giving any cities. Me thinks USA would not swap New York for the whole of China."

You can't compare trading those, one, arguably the most important city on the planet, and the, for the most part, backwards smaller cities of China.

"Also if there was no corruption then the Fobidden Palace would be completely useless"

you say that like the Forbidden Palace MUST be in the game.

"picking what discoveries you will discover next."

I agree, it's kind of hard to know what you're about to discover or plan on "discovering" it.

Basically, like I said before, "corruption should be almost communal at the advent of instant communication" or something like that...

[brianshapiro]

im about 23 now but ive been playing the game since junior high school , since then ive been thinking of ways to make a game like this more realistic and work better. but i wont paste half my ideas on this board , because they are large fundamental changes and unless i work as a designer for firaxis id rather start programming my own game which im confident i can do . btw if anyone is intereested in creating this with me leave a message

[bobbo008]

I'm interested. Wait... I can't even work the editor... but I can draw a cool box cover!