Save-and-Load is not cheating

[vmxa1]

Let me see if I follow the gist of this. The ai is dumb and needs to cheat, but people are crying because they are losing due to the cheating? Hum, seem like a contradiction to me. People that are beating the game are not concerned about the cheat.
Anyway, if they made an AI that was clever enough to deal with all of the tactics that people throw at it , we would all be cring about not being able to beat it and it would not sell very well.
I am not sure it could be done anyway, but if it was it would add a lot to the development time and cost.
Yes some of the holes could be plugged, but once the game was out the door, it could be hard to correct them, without breaking other things. It cost money to do that type of work and will not return any income to them.

[swagled]

WillBill, Fittstim:

I pretty much agree with your stand on reloading the game. A lot of my re-loads are attempts to understand better the effects of my choices.

Last night I was playing a game with 3 other civs, and I was in 2nd place. The #3 civ offers me a mutual protection pact. Decisions... Decisions... Would I rather help him out (and get dragged into a war), or rebuff him (and piss him off?)

I played the game both ways for an hour. In both cases the game ends with the #1 Civ hammering me... although I seemd to survive longer by rebuffing #3 and forming a temporary alliance with #1. The weak are the first to perish!

Another consideration with re-loads, is whether you preserve random seed. When you re-Load using unpreserved seeds, you can do things like explore the whole oceans with a single un-Lighthoused galley.

It sank? Try again.
It sank? Try again.
It sank? Try again. Aha! There's new land!

OK. I've resorted to this a few times. But I knew I really was cheating, because it was a cost-free gamble. I may as well have loaded the map into the editor and looked it over.

However, I would not consider it a cheat to build 8 galleys and send them off to their doom, just to get information. The AI may not do that, but that's the fault of the AI programming. It probably *should*.

Someone asked earlier if I thought it was a cheat to exploit weaknesses in the AI. In a way, I think it is. A good AI should have a mix of tactics and moods. You shouldn't know that "leaving an unprotected sttler on your border always draws the AI out to attack you", etc. This is a form of predictability, and it's predictability that is the achilles heel of computer play.

I.e., if the AI made suicide galleys, it shouldn't do it all the time. Maybe with *some* of the civs, *some* of the time....

[CTPFAN]

I would love to see an AI that would read and react to what a human player is doing. But as stated before, not sure how hard that would be.

I will say this about Civ3, the AI has often attacked me with large forces, not the little packs like in some RTS games like AOE2 for instance. You would think it would be easier to program a turnbased AI, since the AI doesnt have to react on the fly. But, I dont think the AI manages its economy as well as a human. So many cities, placed in the worst spots.....they never grow.

All that aside, I am enjoying the game....the AI provides a sufficient challenge, and does on occasion surprise me.

[Gwylim]

Like WilBill told: The victims are only you and the computer, so in my eyes it makes no sense anyway to speak about "cheating". It is part of the game and gives me the control over the game. I am wondering if the "non-save and load" people dont loose fun because they have to be very aware of everything all the times, especially on the upper two levels and on big maps (looking the other civs every turn, checking the cities every turn,...).
For me it is fun to play like if it was a game and not like if it was reality
...and anyway, without a good strategy you can reload 100 times and you will still lose...

[ACooper]

Is masturbation cheating on your spouse?


Don't worry about it, just lock the door before you reload.

[wilbill]

ACooper...

[Pyrodrew]

I am wondering if the "non-save and load" people dont loose fun because they have to be very aware of everything all the times, especially on the upper two levels and on big maps

You have it reverse. The "non-save and load" people do not "have to" be very aware of everything all times. If I make a mistake (like if I have a disorder in the 1st few turns of a game or lose a vital city) I say "oh well" & move on. By me moving on & not reloading I spend more time playing the game. If the actual reloading process is part of actual playing for you, we have very different versions of playing.

The "save and re-load" people also lose more fun since any drastic loss/defeat is not... drastic, simply a reload time. Retribution/Revenge against AIs for killing one's favorite city/unit it not as sweet simply because the reloader never lost the city/unit in the 1st place. Those who never reload are on a more dangerous level with no safety net (reloading) that reloaders have. Those who never reload also learn how to better deal with the aftermath of unexpected surprises (surprise attacks), which the reloader would just reload to avoid. Reloading is often simply a safety net which some need and depend on... and others do not. That aside, I'm all in favor of reloading for learning (aka "I wouldn't do this & I'll keep my regular game seperate, but lets see what happens if I did...")

[vmxa1]

Funny thing, on Might and Magic forum I had a dialog with some one that though reloading as many as 100 times to get what he wanted from a dead dragon or shops was just fine. How much time would that take anyway? I can hardly stand the load time it takes to start the game in the first place.

[Dis]

yes it is if you do it after an unsuccessful combat.

of course it's not cheating if you save the game, close it and come back a few hours or days later to resume playing

[Egbert]

Would the AI be cheating if it reloaded after losing a battle?

OTH In a single player game who would care if the human cheated? The AI would not care! BTW I agree reloading is not a cheat. I just couldn't be bothered with reloading, waste of time and takes some of the uncertainty out of the game. If ones strategy is bad enough the reloading won't be of much help anyway.

[DrSpike]

If you reload every time something unplanned happens you remove the need to adapt, which is a key element in civ skill. Having said that, if reloading floats your boat, then by all means do so. You just wont be a very good players in many people's eyes.

[metalhead]

Re: Save-and-Load is not cheating

Originally posted by swagled
I came to this conclusion last night after learning more about how the AI works.

In case you haven't discovered this (and I don't feel like debating this point, go read the other threads and experiment yourself if you don't agree,) any Civ you encounter, automatically knows every unit you have, all of your territory, and how well garrisoned your cities are.

It's especially obvious when you have only one city on your coastline with a single spearman in it.... and the AI omnisciently decides to make a beachhead there... Try restoring a few moves earlier, move some units from the next city into it, leaving city "B" undefended... hmmm! Where does the invasion fleet go now?? It's as if there was radio communication to those frigates and galleons... the supreme commander has new orders for you!

If you had any grasp of strategy, you could use this to your advantage. Personally, I think it's great that I can influence where an AI invasion force will be concentrated. It makes it easier to defend against, and I really don't see the correlation between this and reloading. I think a better argument for reloading is that it makes you a better player. If things go horribly wrong at some point, then it is a good learning experience to go back to a previous save and see how any catastrophes can be avoided or at least lessened. But, don't brag about a 20,000 point deity win if you reload every time you make a mistake. Reloading is only cheating if you use it to beef up a GOTM or other competition game, or for a HOF game, or to misrepresent your skill level.

[spartak]

Why in God's name can an AI not be programmed that doesn't need unfair advantages to give it a chance?

[alva]

Since no one(not just Firaxis) has succeded in even coming close, me thinks it's an inny pitty wee more difficult then you think it is

[DrSpike]

Of course it is difficult.......how can an AI choose a different reaction to a new circumstance? It can't, the designers just have to consider lots of possibilities......there will always be ways to exploit AI.