France better than Germany?

[brianshapiro]

akka de vil.
dont be rude.
myself, i would say my comments say nothing that i would need more situations in life to know about.
[except where i was being obviously sloppy]/

[Heresson]

This can be greatly attributed to the obsolete airforces of Poland and Russia

First of all, not Russia but SU.
Secondly, Polish airforces weren't all that bad. They were just little. Ask someone about "los" bomber. It was the best in its class. All was taken by Romanians later (who gracefully oferred us to buy it from them after the war - Polish communists refused as they preferred to buy Soviet wooden airplanes...). Still, Poland had well-trained pilots, who scored 1/8 German losses in battle of England.

[TheStinger]

The Polish and Czech pilots were very important in the BOB

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Heresson


First of all, not Russia but SU.

Gee Heresson, sometimes in the OT we aren't so quick to point that out....So when did Russia suddenly become the Soviet Union?

When its convinent for you?

(This is useful for so many situations)

ACK!

[Heresson]

After the revolution perhaps?

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Heresson
After the revolution perhaps?

More than once you've made sure that its RUSSIA whos to blame, not the Soviet Union.

Have we forgotten these things?

[bobbo008]

Russia...Soviet Union...either way it wasn't exactly the will of the people...

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000


More than once you've made sure that its RUSSIA whos to blame, not the Soviet Union.

Have we forgotten these things?

Russians created SU...
But I never blamed them for what SU did. At least I do not recall it. Give me an example of such behaviour of mine.

[Boris Godunov]

How did this go from France vs Germany to Poland vs Russia?

[planetfall]

Boris,

Simple Americans don't know history. At most they know a few snippets. Don't want to post a long reply, but could help notice gaps:

1. ME110
Used as bomber because of Hitler. Hitler wanted to destroy, destory and had no experience with fighters. The only way the Luftwaffe could get fighters was to pretend they were bombers.

2. Hitler
Not listed as a great leader. Typical American bias. Stalin is listed as great leader and yet he killed more than twice as many as Hitler.

3. German culture
Where are the great religious figures:
Luther, Melanthon, Boehnhoeffer

4. German religion
Yes it used to be important but fell to the wayside with arrogant humanism replacing monotheism, i.e, Homo-monotheism replacing Deus-monotheism. Also shared by civ3 developers: Cermonial burial -> Mysticism -> polytheism -> monotheism -> theology -> evolution.

What should Germany's traits be?

Expansion- no, Lebensraum is not the same as American Manifest Destiny. Hitler only propagated the idea to shift focus from the pain inside Germany to any place else. Not much different than Clinton using war to help himself politically.

Military-- obviously. Very good army in WW1 and WW2 or it would not have taken a group of nations to stop them.

Cultural-- sorry no operas, but this is possible. Luther, a german, started the Reformation. Bach, Mendleson, Stauss are still admired today. Germany has more cathedrals than Egypt has pyramids.

Industrial-- possible, Germans sometimes tend to miss the big picture but even with modern socialism there is still a strong work ethic.

Commercial-- possible. Definitely more than spain or Russia or England in modern times, but less than England at the time of their empire.

Scientific-- possible. Van Braun, Einstein were Germans.

Religious-- possible. Did institute a state religion. Unfortunately the state religion killed the religious value system.

Ok, so not Expansion and yes military.
If had to choose one of the remaining 4 as being most characteristic of the Germans, a case could be made for any of the 4 remaining traits.

I choose not commerical because even though Germany has been an exporter of high quality machinery, they are not competitive in computers/electronics/mass production of goods.

I choose not industrial because even though there is a strong work ethic in many Germans, Germans also take 6 weeks of vacation.

I choose not religious because even though Luther lead the Reformation, modern Germans are making more of a religion of non-religious humanism than any theism or monotheism.

Thus I am left with:
military
scientific.

Again a valid case can be made for any trait except expansion. There is a big difference between a few leaders saying it would be nice to expand and actually expanding. Note Japan is not expansive.

Weird aside, just noticed Rome is not expansive civ even though the great expansive civs were: British, Americans, and Romans.

== PF

[planetfall]

Me110

Forget to add, a major reason Germany was defeated in WWII was Hitler's bias vs fighters. He blocked almost all R&D on the me262, a early jet fighter.

B17's were no match, it was only the lack of commitment to first R&D and then production that allowed Ike to carry on with the daily air bombardment. Personally good for me as father was a B17 bombardier, but was bad for German expansion.

== PF

[MiloMilo]

Originally posted by planetfall
Not much different than Clinton using war to help himself politically.

Excuse me? Don't you think Clinton helped himself most by focusing on domestic issues rather than foreign affairs? Have you seen the news lately? Shrub is getting his own little war for christmas, just like the one his daddy had.

As far as your analysis of the German traits, your is a good explanation of why they properly are as they are, and I agree. Personally, I think the traits given to America are more questionable: I think you could make as good or better arguments for religious, commercial, and even scientific as for expansionist.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by MiloMilo


Excuse me? Don't you think Clinton helped himself most by focusing on domestic issues rather than foreign affairs?

Yeah, Monica was a great help.

As far as your analysis of the German traits, your is a good explanation of why they properly are as they are, and I agree.

Interesting, I did not check to see what their traits were. I just started with all six and started subtracting.

Personally, I think the traits given to America are more questionable: I think you could make as good or better arguments for religious, commercial, and even scientific as for expansionist.

Again, expansive civs are: England, Rome, America, Russia, and China.

I think commercial trait would be more accurately applied to US than industrial simply because WWII was won and stayed won by huge commerical production developed. Don't think used by civ3 as commerical trait as commerce is weaker than industrial and developers liked to play as america.

Industrial only makes sense as it was the hard work that build up a "new country" from 1776 to 1900's.

America is not religious, unless you consider Culture Religion or Humanism a religious trait.

Argument could easily be made for scientific trait for america.

Thus,
Expansive- yes
Relgious- no
Industrial- possible
commerical- possible
scientific- possible
military- possible

Would not include military as America's use of military in recent history {1900's} has been in response to outside aggression.

Industrial/commerical/scientific-- pick any one.

Industrial was probably picked as civ3 liked fast american workers and needed a few more industrial traits to balance traits of all civs.

== PF

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by planetfall
Boris,

Simple Americans don't know history. At most they know a few snippets. Don't want to post a long reply, but could help notice gaps:

I don't think, speaking as an American, that Americans are any less qualified to speak of history than Europeans. I could point out a lot of errors in your own post.

Hitler:
Not listed as a great leader. Typical American bias. Stalin is listed as great leader and yet he killed more than twice as many as Hitler.

I don't think the Germans, French, British or any other country would necessarily have listed him, either. It isn't about American bias, it's about Hitler being a very sensitive subject worldwide. I frankly think Germans would be more upset than anyone at having Hitler listed as a great leader for them.

4. German religion
Yes it used to be important but fell to the wayside with arrogant humanism replacing monotheism, i.e, Homo-monotheism replacing Deus-monotheism. Also shared by civ3 developers: Cermonial burial -> Mysticism -> polytheism -> monotheism -> theology -> evolution.

None of this negates Germany's dramatic influence on the world vis-a-vis religion. The Reformation gave rise to Prostetantism, and Marxism gave rise to humanism. Two massively important things.

Expansion- no, Lebensraum is not the same as American Manifest Destiny. Hitler only propagated the idea to shift focus from the pain inside Germany to any place else. Not much different than Clinton using war to help himself politically.

While I object to the Clinton statement, I agree Germany shouldn't be considered expansionist. Having one period that spanned a dozen years where they aggressively expanded doesn't make them an expansionist civilization. Lebensraum is a weak justification, yes.

Military-- obviously. Very good army in WW1 and WW2 or it would not have taken a group of nations to stop them.

Even before that. In the 18th century, Prussia was regarded as having the best-trained army in Europe. The skill of German soldiers was always highly-regarded, which is why German mercenaries often made up as much as 40% of European armies.

Cultural-- sorry no operas, but this is possible. Luther, a german, started the Reformation. Bach, Mendleson, Stauss are still admired today. Germany has more cathedrals than Egypt has pyramids.

Huh? First, there is no plain "cultural" trait in the game, so not sure what this means. But there are TONS of German opera. Mozart and Wagner alone account for a great deal of the most-loved operas in the world. It is the most prolific opera culture after Italy. And as my list earlier showed, there are probably more German musical giants than in any other culture.

Industrial-- possible, Germans sometimes tend to miss the big picture but even with modern socialism there is still a strong work ethic.

Well, we could quibble about what the Industrial trait really means, but Germany has always been in the forefront of industrial nations since unification. As I mentioned, by the end of the 19th century it was outstripping all other countries in many areas of industrial production and had the world's best railroad network. Today is among the industrial giants of the world. This trait fits them well.

Commercial-- possible. Definitely more than spain or Russia or England in modern times, but less than England at the time of their empire.

While Germany is the third largest economy today, I agree that commericalism isn't a trait I would give to the Germans. They didn't build a worldwide trading empire like the English or Dutch did. But why should the French have commercial? Doesn't make sense to me.

Scientific-- possible. Van Braun, Einstein were Germans.

Here I think you're severely understating German scientific achievement. Since the turn of the century, Germans have been considered to be at the forefront of scientific research. The list of great German scientists is prolific. I would say they deserve the scientific trait as much as any other.

Religious-- possible. Did institute a state religion. Unfortunately the state religion killed the religious value system.

The Reformation gives the Germans a distinct impact on religion, but I don't think the trait applies. I don't see Germany has having had a particularly religious culture as opposed to their European contemporaries.

I choose not commerical because even though Germany has been an exporter of high quality machinery, they are not competitive in computers/electronics/mass production of goods.

Apparently you haven't heard of Siemens. Germany has several top-notch technology firms. You're also forgeting the field of banking. Deutschbanke alone is an example of their huge influence in commercial banking.

I choose not industrial because even though there is a strong work ethic in many Germans, Germans also take 6 weeks of vacation.

I don't think this has any bearing on the Industrious trait. German engineering is the most highly-regarded in the world, and their work ethic is equally as admired. The culture revolves around such a work ethic.

Overall, I think the Germans should be Industrious and Scientific. I think the militaristic trait is based more on stereotype than anything else. While Germany had a great army, yes, I don't think the entire history of the Germans bears out a particularly militant culture.

[planetfall]

Got to run, but

1. Ok, military is stereotype in spite of Husseins, WW1 and WW2.

2. Industrious and scientific seem best traits for Germany.

3. There is no FrankBank, why is France commerical? It makes more sense for France to be Military and Religious. France brought the crusades and Inquisition. Definitely religious about the use of the french language. Commerical, not if Infrogrames is a prime example.

Later.

== PF