Comprehensive revamp of trade and infrastructure

[Sir Shiva]

Looking for resources could be done later by remote sensing satellites.. I have tons of ideas for satellites but I think I'll start a new thread..

Back to the topic, I think that this resources model will only work if the transportation system that I outlined in the first post is implemented..
Your thoughts on that?

PS. How does one become a chieftain/emperor?

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-Shiva
Email: shiva@mailops.com
Web: http://www.crosswinds.net/india/~shiva
ICQ: 17719980

[MidKnight Lament]

It's based on number of posts you've made.

Check out the faq at http://apolyton.net/forums/apolytonfaq.shtml for the numbers.

- MKL

[tniem]

I like the idea of having monopolies of raw materials, but I think that it should be stretched to finished products also. If you have Iron working before another civilization, you should be able to sell iron swords and set the price. This way you could make money off of being more advanced. I can see it know, a type of triangle trade, I get iron from the English, make it into swords and shields, to sell to the Russians. The Russians are of course fighting the Aztecs and so they too need swords. I make lots of money and then when the two nations are tired of fighting, I kill them with my next technology.

[The Joker]

Personally I am not sure how looking for ressources should be done. It should be something that you would have to use some ressources (gamewise - money, units, production, trade or something) on doing, but it should be a too tedious job.

Colonies etc:
Maybe I will start such a thread... I have been advocating for that ever since I first arrived at this forum, so many people propably already know the ideas. But I will consider it.

[MidKnight Lament]

Trade is a tricky one. Ideally it would be best if we had responsive markets in raw materials and finished goods. We would have to put resources into converting one to the other. We'd be able to create monopolies and cater for niche markets. I haven't played Imperialism, but Colonization springs to mind with a few of these.

We were only able to nuture that sort of system because we looked after a small number of cities though. It's going to be hard to get the comlexity in trade that we're looking for without tedious micro-management when we're looking after 30 or more cities.

I'm still unsure how trade should best be handled... Still waiting for someone to come up with an excellent idea. Sounds like Firaxis already have an idea how they're going to do it.

- MKL

[Gord McLeod]

As far as locating hidden resources goes, maybe have some type (or types) of Prospector unit that can move about the terrain and search for a variety of special resource types. Make them smart enough to know the types of terrain to search for a given type of resource, and to avoid hellish micromanagement, allow them to search not only the square they're sitting in but every square in their range of sight. One square diameter, two with the appropriate upgrade or replacement unit.

[The Mad Viking]

Some thoughts:
1. Buying units- I don;t understand how you can just buy a unit for cash. Who built it? Where did they get the production? To me, this is the most important change to make. You can't buy anything that someone hasn't produced. Resources, energy and factories somewhere, make that armor unit or that offshore platform. You would need to increase production rates to compensate. Money is just a representation of goods owed.

2. Trade in commodities - I think this is a good idea and need not complicate the game very much. Every turn, a trade screen opens that shows your reserves, your production, your projected use, and the price last turn for each commodity. (Say 12 commodities total) You slide what you want to buy / sell / keep, and set a price you want to get / pay. It defaults to your last turn, so like tax rates you don't hve to do anything. The computer adjudicates. Sometimes you pay a little more, maybe get a little less, depending on how much is for sale, how many sellers etc.
3. Monopolies and markets
Using the solution above, a monopoly will get a better price, but he will have to sell some to realize it. Seeding of resources should be far less even than civ2, but still distributed well enought that cornering a market completely would be virtually impossible until you had at least half the map.
In practice, a two countries at war have often continued to trade - often without their knowledge! This is the nature of markets. Nations A and C are at war. Nation A is selling to B, but unbeknownst to A, B flips it to C. Meanwhile C sells something to B and B flips it to A. Voila, warring nations trade, and the neutral middleman gets richer.

4. Resouce mapping
Absolutely resources have to be seeded more randomly, with occasional dense concentrations of some resources in a relatively small area.
Absolutely resources that cannot be used should not be visible. But I personally see no need for prospectors; when the resource becomes available, it will show up on any explored tile. I personally think we should assume that prospecting is going on and that little interest would be added to the game by re-exploring every time a new advance makes something valuable. Oil reserves, for example, could pop up over time, first when oil well technology is developed, then when offshore drilling is developed they could appear offshore, then when tarsand extraction, some more land sites show up. These would be linked to advances (e.g. machine tools, miniaturization, superconductor) and fully automated.

[MidKnight Lament]

This raises plenty of questions in my mind.

- Does prospecting require a specific action, or does passing over terrain with a prospector suffice? (I would say an action).

- With all this resourse finding (I'm assuming there would be more than one resource to find) do we want different prospecting units, or one unit who's abilities grow as you discover certain techs?

- Do we need a resource overlay (or perhaps one for each resource?) so that we can clearly see where we have and have not discovered resources? Remembering them would be difficult, and placing them on the normal screen could get cluttered, I'm thinking.

- With resources, are they simply present or not, or do they have limitations (quantities)? Monopolies, and fighting for resources would be much more realistic if resources could be anywhere from sparse to prevelant in a certain tile, but is this too complex? If each tile does have a limitation, how would we represent it on an overlay?

- Would the overlay be on a seperate screen, or would it simply become active when it's a prospector's turn (I would suggest so)?

Just some thoughts.

- MKL
[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited April 06, 2000).]

[Sir Shiva]

A resource overlay would be cool..

I'm not sure how we are going to implement the prospector.. Maybe, as Viking suggested, resources should show up with technological discoveries, but perhaps not all of them show up.. If you want a monopoly, you would STILL have to search for resources (to find even more)..

Someone help me out here - I'm going to start tuping out the 'Final Drafts' of all of ideas that I originated or helped develop (Transportation, Migration, Air warfare, Tile improvements etc.) and put them up for new threads.. They will be comprehensive, incorporating everything discussed.. So could you guys try and put what we have discussed/suggestions into point form? I won't remember them all while typing..

PS. No comments on the transportation model?

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-Shiva
Email: shiva@mailops.com
Web: http://www.crosswinds.net/india/~shiva
ICQ: 17719980

[jgv_fiera]

Just a little point before you make a final draft on this.

Mad Viking,

I think you need to search for hidden resources. Although you know how to use oil, you don't know where it is until you make a hole in the desert, so that should be depicted in the game as some kind of unit/action (or even money investment) and should not be authomatic. It's not so micromanagament after all, and I think it would add some fun to the game.

Thanks to all who have discussed on this point.

[Gord McLeod]

I'm big on options in games like this. It occurs to me that things like prospecting might be a case where we should push for options and toggles. Much like there's an option for simplified combat, maybe there can be simplified trade and simplified resource discovery. That way the game will appeal to a broader base of gamers - those who love micromanagement can use the complex systems, those who are into wargaming can turn everything (except maybe combat) down to its simplified form, and those who enjoy a mix can tailor the micromanagement to only those systems they want to use in depth. I realize this makes a bit more work for Firaxis, but I think it'd be worth it.

[tniem]

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking on 04-06-2000 09:26 PM Some thoughts: 1. Buying units- I don;t understand how you can just buy a unit for cash. Who built it? Where did they get the production? To me, this is the most important change to make. You can't buy anything that someone hasn't produced. Resources, energy and factories somewhere, make that armor unit or that offshore platform. You would need to increase production rates to compensate. Money is just a representation of goods owed.

Mad Viking-

At least in capitalistic Democracies not all productivity is controlled by the government, in fact a small percentage is. So I would think that purchasing a unit or weapon or improvement or whatever would simply be hiring contractors which have the goods from the society to make what you want. This is why I would like to see corporations added to the game as long as I don't have to build them.

However, in early governments when the king controlled everything, your right there is no where to buy the goods and that needs to be thought out. Or maybe this is where the country folk come into the game for the first time, when you buy something your hiring the farmers that are not represented in the game. A historical backing for this might be the Egyptian farmers who were expected to serve a set number of days every year working on the pyramids or what not.

[MidKnight Lament]

quote: Originally posted by Gord McLeod on 04-07-2000 05:26 PM I'm big on options in games like this.

Me too. Big time. Anywhere where it's practical, give us the option in an Advanced Options Dialog Box at Startup. And you're right that this is a good case for one too.

- MKL

[Sir Shiva]

OK, here are the resources that should be in the game:-

Resource Use
_________________________________

Bronze Ancient Military
Clay Ancient Building
Gold Ancient Luxury
Iron Anc/Medieval Military
Spice Medieval Luxury
Stone Med/Industial Building
Wood Anc/Med Shipbuilding
Steel (from Iron) Indust. Military/Ships
Spice/Jewellry? Indust. Luxury
Concrete (Clay+Stone) Modern Building
Steel Modern Military/ships
Petrol (from Oil) Modern Military/Improvements/Trade
Consumer goods (steel+other stuff) Modern Luxury
Uranium Modern Nuclear
Titanium Future Stuff/Modern Space



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-Shiva
Email: shiva@mailops.com
Web: http://www.crosswinds.net/india/~shiva
ICQ: 17719980

[Earthling7]

It is a good idea. They just need to make sure it's workable.

I like the idea of manufacturing finished goods out of recourses, but to simplify matters, how about this: You have 10-12 different materials, bronse, iron, oil, silk etc. You will need bronse for phalanxes etc, iron for legions and iron and oil for tanks. There would be no manufacturing. You could use the rew materials directly. However, the materials would not be available everywhere. Oil can be found in the middle east, US, Norway etc. No one country controls all the oil in the world. Resources would be limited to a few areas worldwide, giving most civs opportunity to find them. Also, with modern units requiring iron AND oil, you might have one, but not the other. Same with the other civ. You would have to trade and benefit from each other.

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Greetings,
Earthling7
ICQ: 929768