The Economy

[orange]

This has been discussed to death, but I wanted to see some fresh ideas on the subject...

Ask yourself these questions...
* Should there be a separate section in Civ 3 for choosing an economic system?
* If so, how would such a system work?
* How will economic systems affect production and happiness?
* How can we set up a system that won't be "Americanized" in that Communism sucks and Capitalism rules?
* How can government and economy work together?
* Should certain government's work well/poorly with certain economies?
* Are economies learned through tech or are they always available?
* Should different economic systems affect trade? If so...how?
* Should a Democratic/Capitalist AI look poorly upon you if you are Communist/Communist?
* Is it possible to allow a Communist government with a Capitalist economy, or a Democratic government with a Communistic economy?

My idea is that there should be a slider that determines government (1-9), and one for economy.
Then all available forms of economy and government are available in the beginning...(regardless of tech)

Example...
Government
1 = Anarchy
2 = Communism
3 = Stalinism
4 = Despotism
5 = Monarchy
6 = Constitutional Monarchy
7 = Republic
8 = Democratic Republic
9 = Direct democracy
*really this is a loop, as Direct Democracy is essentially Anarchy...so consider it a circle

Economy
1 = Marxist Communism (no free enterprise or gov control)
2 = Laize-Faire Capitalism (absolutely no government control on economy)
3 = Capitalism (very little government control)
4 = Moderate Capitalism (moderate government control)
5 = Moderate Socialism
6 = Socialism
7 = Strict Socialism
8 = Statism (there is a better name for this...but I forget it. Most evident in 3rd world countries)
9 = Stalinism (Complete government control to institute communism)
*this is also a loop as Stalinism is supposed to lead into Communism

Now certain combinations are bound to cause revolt = e.g. what people of a democracy will allow Stalinism?
and what Communist system can allow Capitalism?
However, certain systems (e.g. Communism and Communism, Democracy and Capitalism) will result in enormous corruption. This needs to be reflected somehow...

I'm tired of typing...more to come later.

Thoughts?


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[airdrik]

Communism isn't a govermnent type. 'Communist' governments are actually (generally) dictatorships with communist economies (China was actually a 'monarch'-communist gov, chairman Mao Zedung was looked at as the emperor of communist china. After that, I don't know, we didn't get that far in my eastern civ class).

You can have a democratic government with a communist economy, and that would be the ideal government for a communist economy as the people would be able to collectively decide what is best for the economy.
[This message has been edited by airdrik (edited December 18, 2000).]

[orange]

No...actually Direct Democracy is the opposite of what communist societies want. They want nothing to be voted on. In a commune, things just happen. Everyone works for the good of society. Anarchy is really the best government for a communist economy. But not anarchy the way we view it, anarchy the way communists view it.

What you described is a Stalinistic government. The ideal communist government has no man of power...and everyone works for the good of the society (commune). I believe Marx allows for a figurehead...but that person has no real power.

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[Nikolai]

quote: Originally posted by orange on 12-17-2000 01:56 PM what Communist system can allow Capitalism?

Actually, Sovjet under Lenin HAD a kind of capitalism! After the revolution, Lenin tried to make real communism, but it failed, and in desperation to keep the power, Lenin accepted a capitalistic system!

However , when Stalin got the power, he reintroduced the communistic version.

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[orange]

I wouldn't call it capitalism...more like moderate socialism...

But even if that were the case, one of my questions is "should a Communistic government be allowed without a Communistic economy?" (Lenin's "Communism" was really a kind of Stalinism...or even Despotism with a socialistic economy)

Should we go textbook definition of Communism, or relate it to what countries make of it? And if the former, should we allow any other economic system but Communism to go along with it? (Because true Communism is an economic and governmental system)

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[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by airdrik on 12-17-2000 02:05 PM Communism isn't a govermnent type. 'Communist' governments are actually (generally) dictatorships with communist economies (China was actually a 'monarch'-communist gov, chairman Mao Tse-Tung was looked at as the emperor of communist china. After that, I don't know, we didn't get that far in my eastern civ class) ....

And a good thing they didn't teach you more nonsense like that, too!

Here are some standard definitions of governments.

Dictatorship: the country is by a single person (by force) with absolute power.

Monarchy: the country is ruled by a single (wealthy) family (with more families administrating counties) bound by law.

Republic: the country is ruled by chosen representatives of the (economic) elite, for the elite

Communism: the country is ruled by a single party (of commoners) with absolute power. (Often there are elections to decide the representatives of counties.)

Democracy: the country is ruled by chosen representatives of the (common) people, for the people

Fundamentalism: the country is ruled by the (religious) elite with absolute power

Of course in the real world there can be mixtures, extremes and even exotic types of government, and new types are bound to show up in the future (referendum, delphi, artificial intelligence).

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[This message has been edited by Ribannah (edited December 17, 2000).]

[Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto]

actually airdrik is right, communism is not an actual government, its the leaders that rule the government.

[Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto]

I think there should be more government tipes:

1. Monarchy

2. Fundementalism

3. Communism (this is not a government!)

4. Republic

5. Democracy

6. Despotism

7. Modern Socialism (Nazism, it was not the soldiers that were nazis, it was an actual political party, led by Hitler)

8. Fascism (like Socialism)

9. modern Communism (China)

oops, double post!
[This message has been edited by Diablo, Bro. of Mephisto (edited December 18, 2000).]

[orange]

No...I'm going to agree with Ribs on this one. Communism isn't just an economic system. It's a life-style that can be instituted only by a communist economy and a communist government. No one controls the government in Communism, making it unique. There is no dictator, no person with ultimate power, no legislature. Communism is a system without a leader, everyone simply works for the good of a commune. A "Communist" system with a leader or group of leaders is "Stalinism" (or Maoism) which is supposed to lead to true Communism (but as we know, never does). There has been much argument on these forums in the past about whether to have true Communism as a government type because it doesn't work. The other side of the argument is that no system is true to its ideals, so Communism should be allowed.

Anyway, any more ideas on the topic at hand? Think about the bullet points made in my first post. Do you have any thoughts on these?

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[orange]

Diablo - Socialism is not a government system in and of itself. It's an economic style. You can have a democratic socialism or a dictatorship socialism. So I don't think Socialism should be a government type.

I agree, Facism should probably be a government type (left out of my original ) because it has been used. Perhaps a boost to military (ie free support for certain units)

I don't see Fundamentalism as a true government type. Really it's a monarchy of sorts, or even a despotism. One man rules. And if Fundy is a choice, everyone will choose that over Despotism. Fundamentalism, if apparent in Civ 3, should only be available to certain types of Civs IMO. This will be much easier if religion is apparent in the game, as Civs can have fundamentalist systems when the religious content of the Civ is above a certain percent.

By Modern Communism, do you mean "Stalinism"?

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[beyowulf]

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 12-17-2000 07:07 PM Fundamentalism: the country is ruled by the (religious) elite with absolute power

Nope, what your talking about is a 'Hagiarchy' or rule by religious saints or priests. Fundamentalism is more of a religious condition than polithical.

[eNo]

The problem is that a free-market/capitilist economy is the only one that has ever worked on a large scale basis. Marx made some false assumptions when he predicted that fall of capitilism and the rise of commnuism and communism also relies on people's good will, which, unfortunately is not very trustworthy.

I think the only things you should be able to change: is the type of leadership (tyranny, monarchy, republic, democratic, fundamentalist/facist/hagiarchy) and the degree of government intervention in the economy or the degree of socialism. Degree of socialism would simply mean how active the government takes part in education, health care, etc. I group facist and hagiarchy together because the relevant idea of the two is that they both have fierce notional loyalty among the people.

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[orange]

Good points E. I was originally seeing a sliding bar from one economic extreme, complete state control, to the other, Laize-Faire. I suppose that's always an idea. And then for government "rule by one" to "rule by all" (well, stated better of course...you get the idea)

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[airdrik]

To help clarify some things,

Communism is where the government owns and governs EVERYTHING.

Socialism is the same thing, only instead of government ownership of everything, it is the people's ownership of everything. In a socialistic society, all profits are pooled and distributed evenly among everyone.

BTW, the Nazi party in Germany was a facist party run by Hitlar, who eventually named himself the 'dictator' of Germany (actually he didn't name himself that, he just saw to it that he got the top job and when he did he eliminated all opposition, which is how a dictator generally comes to power)

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by beyowulf on 12-18-2000 03:52 PM Nope, what your talking about is a 'Hagiarchy' or rule by religious saints or priests. Fundamentalism is more of a religious condition than polithical.

Strictly speaking, you are right that my description is of Hagiocracy, but most people aren't familiar with that term. Fundamentalism is the ideology that goes with it.



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