Tech List 0.1

[Dom Pedro II]

Here's all of my suggestions

[Kestrel]

What about the Telephone ?

Most of you reading this are connected to the internet by it, and it definitely was a precursor to Radio, (and the Internet) and yet it always seems to be left off everyone's tech tree lists. Why - does it hint at some sort of a technology blind spot ? Or is it not as important as I think ?

IMHO the establishment and maintenance of a Telephone system is one of the base infrastructures that a country now needs in order to be internationally competitive. (or even locally effective).

Having worked in a number of countries in the third world without a reliable telephone system I have found that its absence makes the wheels of business turn inordinately slowly.

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Some new wonders: Kinderdike Mills. At the moment I have about 45.

I would like to add tulips and clogs. Come on Rib .....

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Some new wonders: Kinderdike Mills. At the moment I have about 45.

I would like to add tulips and clogs. Come on Rib .....

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Some new wonders: Kinderdike Mills. At the moment I have about 45.

I would like to add tulips and clogs. Come on Rib .....
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited November 10, 2000).]

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Originally posted by wernazuma on 11-08-2000 06:05 Well, at all I'm not sure whether Romanticism should be really considered an advance. I don't really think it was so vital for the development of liberal ideas... (in the german culture Romanticism was merely something conservative. However I agree that IF it's included, Nationalism has to be a prereq. for Romanticism. You're right that a lot happened in that time so I'm not sure if Romanticism really belongs to the most important ones.

Sorry Werner, your saying that romanticism appeared in the early 19th century and that it should have nationalism as a prereq. is a typical Austrian/German notion.

A historical explanation, just to put things in perspective .

Romanticism has its roots in mid 18th century France. It’s most important "prophet" was the Genevan writer/pamfletteer Jean Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778), who f.i. wrote "Du contrat social". The one thing romanticism is about, is (personal) self-determination. In literature a new phenomenen appeared the novel (french/dutch/german=roman: a novellist=romancier) in which the personal life of citizens was the main subject. A good example of a german "romantic" book is "die Leiden des jungen Werthers", by Goethe first published 1774.

Romantic idea’s played a very important role in the american and french revolution. The expression the rights of man comes from the name of a pamflet written by a scottish American Thomas Paine*, in favor of the french revolution. He’s also is the writer of two other pamflets of which the names have stuck in the "westernworld" collective memory, "Common Sense" and "the Age of Reason". "Common sense" was written during the American revolution, "the Age of Reason" after the french revolution. All three pamflets basically are about basing the right of self-determination of a people/nations on reason. (BTW one of the example’s for the american and french republic was the dutch republic (for whom (little known) the suisse republic was an example)) (in the NL there was widespread "patriotic" support for the american and french revolutionary cause, which lead to the fourth Dutch-Anglo war in 1780-1784).

After the revolt in 1789 in France a "constitutional" republic was founded. The constitution (D=Grundgesetz, NL=grondwet) was to be the foundation of the whole legislative system. This law, a legislative novelty !!, started with a summary of the rights of man. The revolutionary concept of administration and legislation was based on the Trias Politica. In the french revolutionary constitution also was stated that all citizens (mind you, in those days there wasn’t any talk about women(rights/duties)) had the duty to defend their country. This lead to the introduction of Conscription. The large "people’s-armies" lead by (a.o.) Napoleon swept across the european mainland. There’s also the brilliance of Napoleon as a strategist, but in general the opponent states just couldn’t power up against the massive french force. Britain had to heavily use pressgangs to reinforce its army and navy.
After the revolution was corrupted for (also but mainly) napoleonic dynastic reasons, Napoleon propagated the threat of the occupation of the "french fatherland" itself, and used this as a reason to maintain the armies/conscription. You can say Nationalism was born in that moment of time. "Allons enfant the leur patrie . . etc."

The revolution and its ideas about people’s-rights/legislation/administration had been exported all over the continent. In general all over Europe the french occupation at first was welcomed with great enthousiam, f.i. Jews and in the Netherlands also the catholics (a.o. tolerated religions) for the first time were given equal civilian rights. In Germany and Austria it inspired a complete generation with revolutionary/romantic (nationalistic/liberal) ideals**.
After the french were beaten, all over Europe a/the reaction (to the revolution) set in. Large parts of the legislative and administrative system based on the Trias Politica, just without a sigh were adopted by the reactionary, Conservative monarchistic/impirial governments. The reaction first and foremost meant that the revolutionary constitution (with all its people’s-rights !!!!!) was abandoned. But, all over Europe one revolutionary duty remained, . . . . . conscription. The idea must have appealed to the governments (as happened in the NL), it was a cheap way to produce massive armies. Because of the fact that the people were kept from their former (revolutionary) rights, nationalistic propaganda "We must keep France at bay" was heavily used as a way to justify conscription.
Nationalism as an ideological set of ideas about the self-determination of a nation has helped to emancipate smaller nations, like the Belgians, under dutch rule from 1815 to 1830, the Greeks (Turkish rule up to 1836), the Servs (Turkish rule up to 1878), the Norwegians (Swedish rule up to 1905), etc. That’s I think the good side of Nationalism.

During the reaction Liberalism and Socialism as movements emerged.
Liberalism was a movement less radical than the french revolutionary movement but still based on the romantic ideas of self-determination. It was concerned with civilian and administrative renewal, re-installment of the constitution, the vote was only to be given to those who were able to pay taxes, which meant no votes for the "mob/proles". Economical it leaned heavily on the ideas of the scottish American Adam Smith !! (1723-1790), who propagated very little state influence on trade and industrial affairs, a strong reaction towards the former british and also (!) french (Colbertism) monarchistic practice.
Socialism was based on the more radical ideas which (a.o.) Rousseau wrote about. The term Socialism also comes from late 18th century France. Vote had to be given to every citizen, whether paying taxes or not. Economical it said that governments had a social duty towards their citizens, should protect them from bad working conditions.

Both liberalism and socialism were strongly oppressed by the reactionary governments. In 1830 and in 1848 in dramatic climathological conditions which caused cropfailure (potatoedisease in Ireland), famine and economical depression, this lead to "romantic" revolutions all over Europe, f.i. in Austria (Wien/Vienna). In 1848 in NL we didn’t have a revolution. But the King (Willem II van Oranje-Nassau) was just so scared out of his wits that he literally overnight gave in to the liberals, a new (second !) constitution was instated in 1849.

1848 also gave birth to an even more radical movement than socialism, Communism a term being invented by Marx and Engels. In "das Kommunistische Manifest" they stated that should the working class survive and prosper, all economical means should be ruled/owned by it.

Underneath of all this lies the social and economical change from the organization of the working and trading class through guilds towards industrialization and free trade.
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There’s more to be said about the consequences this all in my opinion should have for the game and the tech tree, that’s what this thread is about, isn’t it. What and how much of it do we want.
For the moment I leave this reply for what it is. You’ll be hearing from me again after the weekend.

* Last summer, very surprising to me, I heard a beautiful almost "republican" song about Paine being sung by an enthousiastic audience in a folkclub in Whitby, North-Yorkshire, England. Things like that I didn’t expect to happen in the United Kingdom. That really added to the english experience on my holiday.
** Which in the end after some 60 years lead to the re-unification of germany as a unity-state, which scared the hell out of the french, the english and the russians, which lead to an armsrace, which culminated in the first and second world war and last be not least luckily enough in the cold, and not the third world, war. Though I consider myself to be a patriot in the romantic sense of the word, I can’t say I like nationalism that much, whether its dutch, or where-ever from.


"Im Krug zum grünen Kranzen da kehrt ich mal hinein. Da sass ein Bürger drinnen ... "
("In the pub of the green garment I turned in. There I saw a citizen ... " early 19th century german (typical romantic) folksong,)
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited November 10, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited November 10, 2000).]

[Ribannah]

Those "roots" of Romanticism are usually called "Enlightenment". Nationalism gave Romanticism the chance to take real shape. History often works like this. Hence the order in my tech tree: Enlightenment -> Nationalism -> Romanticism, as well as Trias Politica -> Democracy -> Human Rights, the two branches coming together in Liberalism.

The notion of Communism took form before the less extreme Socialism grew into an independent idea. Again the roots of Socialism are of an earlier date. But before Communism was "invented" Socialism was treated as a mere aspect of Liberalism.

Conscription, as an advance, is way older, the knowledge has existed since the dawn of civilization but was applied on and off.

Thomas Paine, btw, also introduced the concept of Basic Income. As an advance, however, I would put this into the tree as a future tech with Social Security as a prerequisite. Once more, early roots are not decisive IMHO. Applications are.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Vrank Prins]

quote: Originally posted by wernazuma on 11-07-2000 06:32 PM I would add Scientific Theory as already mentioned in other threads as prerequisite for all modern sciences.

(This is also being discussed in the thread my complete techtree by Ribannah !!)
My choice is definitely Empiricisme. Yes, it is a way of thinking (and also doing !!). And it's a scientific theory, as there have been (and still are) very many theories/philosophies about how to approach science. It is the way that real scientific knowledge is gained through protocolled experiment, close observation, calculation and re-experiment, close ... etc. over and over again.

Important thing is that in the time Empiricism emerged it contrasted sharply with the by the church "allowed" ways of science who didn't undermine the dogma's (status) of the church. Dogma's which didn't need any prove, because they were devine truths. (A "there's a hippo in the pond". B "but I can't see it swimming there?!". A "but that doesn't prove it's not there. And we say it's there, so you better believe it".)
Galilei was sanction by the pope for his theories. If he and all the other new scientists, like f.i. Copernicus, really had taken any notice of the clerical dogma's nothing would have happened. What would have happened to Newton if England still had been catholic ??
This is also where Humanism comes in. It loosened the dogmatic way's of the church, saying that men should have the freedom to explore gods creation.
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited November 14, 2000).]

[DarkCloud]

Large Update.

[Deity Dude]

I like the telephone idea especially if there is a communication element added to the game. It could almost be it own category of techs maybe starting with language -> storytelling(stole that one off someone else's) ->writing -> printing press -> postal delivery -> telephone -> radio -> television -> satellites -> internet. obviously there would be other prerequisites for each of these but this could be a potential communications path

[Matthew Hayden]

Don't use telephone, maybe telegraphy, which would give you basic telegraph like communications (maybe find some way to simulate the deployment of telegraph
cables eg; you can place land lines along roads and/or
railroads.) Later on another advance would allow for
more advanced communications, maybe Telecommunication
(a bit vague I know).

[Matthew Hayden]

Maybe have Trigger based advances, eg; Colonialism makes certain AI civs suddenly interested in pursuing overseas empires. Advances could also trigger changes in attitude between any two or more civs.
Please say if you like this idea 'cause I'm a newb'y

[Matthew Hayden]

I would like to see my idea arranged very similarly to Deity Dude's, eg;

writing->printing press->postal delivery/telegraphy->telecommunication->radio->television/televisor->mass media->internet

Just a possibility mind you

[Tical_2000]

Why are you idiots making your own tech trees??!! I mean, what the hell's the matter with you?! Don't you have lives to attend to? Firaxis will make the tech tree and that's fine by me.

[Nikolai]

What's wrong Tical? Why are you so angry on everybody?

I don't think I have seen ONE thread where you have posted, that you haven't criticized somebody!

Can't you calm down?

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Who am I? What am I? Do we need Civ? Yes!!
birteaw@online.no